To think that it IS inconsistent to judge men who buy sex but not women who sell it (excluding women who are trafficked/traumatised/acting from financial necessity)?

[Carla786]

The thread today where the OP claimed to have been an escort had quite a few posters saying that they don't judge women who sell sex, only men who buy it.

Now, I think that most women selling sex are trafficked and/or doing so from financial necessity and/or suffering from sexual trauma.

So I don't judge them. But I do judge the minority of women, who DO exist, who sell sex when they have other viable options, are financially OK, often educated etc. Ditto men. They are all contributing willingly to an industry which devalues sex, intimacy and the human body.

It does seem inconsistent to exempt women (and men) who sell sex completely from judgement. Denying that women can willingly prop up harmful industries isn't feminist.

AIBU?

I agree re men pursuing teen girls being accepted until recently- horrible.

And men will use their own ways to get what or where they want to be.

• what do you think men's ways are compared to women's?

Which is why I said women throughout society have. We don’t know who or where. I’d say it happens more so in pretty standard parts of society not just Weinstein level. But you hear about it all the time. And I’m pretty sure men do also in their own ways. I’m actually pretty sure my boss (older female) and the latest trainee (male) are up to something. And let’s just say he’s the type of guy that throughout life likely got his way through things easier than others, and she’s not traditionally someone he’d go for. She’s abusing her position in life, he’s abusing his. Both are married. The world is not perfectly moral in many spheres on life like another poster mentioned

Being a prostitute isn't equivalent AT ALL to sexually abusing someone.

I do accept your welfare state point partly though.

The case of a single woman with kids who could work in a supermarket or as a cleaner etc but sells sex instead. She's not literally being forced to from financial need. She has welfare support available.

Otoh selling sex means she can spend more time with her kids and potentially earn more than the other jobs. How much of a choice is it? I'm thinking myself..

(I've seen this kind of scenario in articles and some AMAs here)

Re entry at 13 : it's unclear if these findings were specifically about trafficked children.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2013/mar/02/diane-mckeel/Is-average-age-entry-sex-trafficking-between-12-an/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/09/is-one-of-the-most-cited-statistics-about-sex-work-wrong/379662/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/06/11/the-dubious-claim-that-on-average-girls-first-become-victims-of-sex-trafficking-at-13-years-old/

Well I’d imagine one of the big pulls is the hours can work around you (and your children) instead of juggling child care - and let’s be honest, most low paid jobs aren’t 9-5 so who cares for your children when your shift starts at 6pm?

And of course the promise of high earning. There’s all ready been several posters on this relatively short thread sharing the myth of earning £Ks from OF and the likes, so when you are desperate and being sold a lie, it’s easy to get suckered in and then really difficult to get back out again (not dissimilar to MLMs which also target those who are struggling). It’s always ‘if you just work harder’, ‘if you just do this slightly more extreme thing’ and so on…

Who knows what how they'll feel in the future, but as of now, they pride themselves on being able to make money, independently using their bodies. They much prefer this to any other job.

I've seen a few documentaries and the women speak in such a liberated way about their sex work. Sometimes it comes across to me as bragging and feeling smug that they have the ability, via their looks and being in great shape to earn this way. Your greatest asset is yourself and your skill in sex work, which is all down to you.. that can be very empowering.

Any work can feel empowering. It's not so much the actual job, but that it enables you to be financially independent.

I remember a friend ( SAHM) who was buying to sell stuff on Ebay 20+ years ago. She was making good money and said she felt empowered that she found a way to earn money and not ask/rely on her DH. Prior to that she was feeling down and depressed because of lack of money.

Many women will likely say it is funding [extravagent thing] because they are too ashamed to admit they also need the money for the basics.

I would encourage you to look into those documentaries if you want a realistic view of the industry

I would suggest she’s a victim of the patriarchy even if not trauma (and I really loathe to say that as it feels like such a cliché). I think when we grow up in a world with men treating women like objects, it can be hard not internalise and behave accordingly.

However that doesn’t mean she can’t also be awful.

They’re hardly going to say it’s all a big sham and how awful it all is if they’re trying to make money from it still.

Could you imagine giving TV interviews about how damaging your work industry is whilst still expecting to be employed in it?

I feel theres a difference between being a sex worker, and being a person who pays for sex, even if you account for full informed consent from the sex worker.
Many of us do jobs we dont particularly enjoy in order to afford things, and some of us will do highly paid but highly stressful work to be able to afford better things in life. The people who go into high end sex work are often funding further education, or a deposit on a house, which aren't frivolous things. However, many people who go into even high end sex work have had an earlier experience in life that makes them more able to sell their body as a product, and those experiences are often negative.
People who buy sex do so knowing that it is purely transactional, knowing that the sex worker is unlikely to find them attractive, and knowing that the money they are offering will allow them to purchase sex activity that may not otherwise have been consented to if money wasn't involved. To my mind, consent becomes blurry when money is involved, because the right amount could influence a sex worker with boundaries to loosen those rules for a bigger one off pay out. So, people who pay for sex do so knowing that there is not enthusiastic consent, or worse, enjoying that there is not enthusiatic consent, and that makes them lesser in my mind.

Men cannot know for sure, if the woman he is buying has been trafficked or not (not that they ever even try to find out), which means he's comfortable with the idea of potentially raping a woman. That's why its not the same.

YABVU

It's their body to do as they like with.
Any man who thinks women are a commodity to be bought and sold is a disgusting lowlife pig.

@hmmmm54321 do you have any sort of sexual abuse or trauma in your background?

I hear you, but I wouldn't do the documentaries if I felt that way.
They don't have to participate.. I'm not sure if they get paid to share their stories and that's why they do it... but from the sounds of things, they make enough in the industry.

They're self employed, so I doubt the SBs or OF workers have an issue with not being able to work in the industry if they say how awful it is on national TV.

It's very different to when I see NHS employees complaining about the conditions.. they do in in disguise..I can see they would fear for their jobs.

The sex workers have nothing to lose..in fact, being on there could being more clients.

It's almost like they're promoting this is the way to go.... and doing a 9 to 5 is a mug's game.

See. I think not having those things is trauma though.

I think societal structure and wealth inequality creates trauma in and of itself. It breeds mental illness too.

Consider. You have no secure home of your own. To get one seems almost financially out of reach. But society bombards you with images of beautiful homes including those of the rich and famous in magazines and on TV everyday. You rent, but society regards you as not being successful because you don't own your own home. You live with the uncertainty of a landlord requiring you to move on at any time. You do not have security.

You're intelligent, and need an outlet for your mind, but education costs tens of thousands and on top of that you need living expenses. It is tough to get. Even if you have one degree, your curiousity in a range of other things makes doing another degree a strong desire. Yet you cannot afford it. You feel you are not reaching your potential. Your mind is stymied. As a woman this is a double whammy.

You cannot get away on a nice holiday when you need a break. You cannot afford 'luxuries' that in society are tied to self-worth and self-image and are constantly pushed as social cashe.

Not having these things can result in mental illness. Sex work might provide those things. So for the person, the sex work might not be as traumatising. The lack of the above things on the other hand, may well be far more so.

And make no doubt about it, our society is sick. It exchanges materialism for bodies. And I don't just mean sexually. I think the Epstein files have revealed the underlying illness of gross capitalism where people with most of the worlds wealth use fiscal disadvantage to exploit those without. Having great means seems to result in a lack of love and caring towards others, so it's ok to deprive others of 'luxuries' like home acquisition and education. Are they luxuries though? Or needs? Or is the bare minimum whilst being 'moral' still a requirement put massively upon the poor, especially women?

I judge both, but my judgement is that they are all free to do as they please. Women will always sell sex and men will always buy it. Always has been and always will. It’s ridiculous to think it will ever change or indeed that it should.

It's an interesting question, OP.
Let's take trafficked/homeless/financially destitute women out of the equation as you're not talking about them.
The dom in the post in question was funding a second degree so was already well educated with great employment prospects. If we assume she's mentally and emotionally strong then she's actively choosing to make her living from men who pay for sex. So she and the customer have equal agency in the transaction.
If I were going to cast judgement (which obviously I shouldn't but will anyway ...) then I'd say they're both as bad as each other.

I don’t judge the men either (in non trafficking etc situations). So many relationships are transactional, marriage started as a financial contract. A man who wants sex, better he pays for it from someone who is freely doing that. I judge heavily men who go off to Thailand etc…

Just leaves the ones who can't get sex anywhere else, or are sex addicts, or high end prostitutes who apparently earn a fortune. Or are they all excused as well because of their various needs and desires?

And how does the man confirm she’s doing it freely?

He can’t.

Some women also buy sex, usually older women younger men.

Back to Andrew again!