To think that it IS inconsistent to judge men who buy sex but not women who sell it (excluding women who are trafficked/traumatised/acting from financial necessity)?

[Carla786]

The thread today where the OP claimed to have been an escort had quite a few posters saying that they don't judge women who sell sex, only men who buy it.

Now, I think that most women selling sex are trafficked and/or doing so from financial necessity and/or suffering from sexual trauma.

So I don't judge them. But I do judge the minority of women, who DO exist, who sell sex when they have other viable options, are financially OK, often educated etc. Ditto men. They are all contributing willingly to an industry which devalues sex, intimacy and the human body.

It does seem inconsistent to exempt women (and men) who sell sex completely from judgement. Denying that women can willingly prop up harmful industries isn't feminist.

AIBU?

Re abuse, I asked ChatGPT..I need to check, but their answer summary seems reasonable : Sex workers — especially those in street-based or survival contexts — have much higher rates of childhood abuse and neglect than the general population, but there is no credible universal figure such as 95%

I agree @stickydough these choices shouldnt be taken out of context. Take Bonnie Blue - she may appear to have agency, but even if (and it's unlikely imo) she hasn't been emotionally, physically or sexually traumatised, she's living in a society that increasingly objectifies women, violence against WAG is super high, where men act in more sexually entitled ways than previously, and a society that has been pornified. Women arent equal economically and the final wammy is that now women are told that selling sex is 'empowering '. Its a patriarchal manipulation, encouraging women to internalise misogyny.

I'm with you on this OP.

These days a lot of women are finding the industry lucrative. They aren't in the categories you mentioned and they feel very empowered doing it.

Women who are sugar babies are doing it voluntarily. I've had conversations/interviews with some SBs and they express feeling empowered and independent.
They don't judge the men who they interact with.

I've heard women who do Only Fans raving about it and being grateful it exists, because it enables them to make £££ and makes them confident.

Good point : I instinctively judge sex buyers more, but I hadn't fully thought that through. Yes, they have no way of really knowing.

I agree also re kinks being an addiction. Sex buying encourages mean to to not address issues like emotional unavailability, sex problems etc. It's writ large in the Japanese geisha system: it accommodated an arranged marriage system where spouses often had little in common, men were trained to expect the geisha to meet those needs. You can see hangovers of that in the hostess thing they still have in Tokyo etc today.

Maybe the only way (hypothetically) to find out if these choices are freely made is to eradicate violence, misogyny sexual entitlement and objectification etc, give women equal opportunities to succeed in a non-patriarchal society. THEN we would be on an equal footing and choices made to sell sex would be made without male coercion or fear of domestic violence etc etc. That would give us the answer about whether SW have true agency. Not holding my breath!

Sounds like some Belle Epoque courtesans : they were a lucky minority who could pick wealthy clients they were attracted to. But most French women selling sex weren't living that life.

A lot of sugar babies ARE exploited.

This podcast, for one :

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=open.spotify.com/episode/1VtQG7k76w9mKzjFMGl3Ge&ved=2ahUKEwiEtKOUp-eSAxUVSUEAHeP_CpIQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw03kne0hRzupr0L-DrntZlR

I would like to read her book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wink-Nudge-Exploits-Secrets-Website-ebook/dp/B0DH5VK1BK

I judge the men more, because they’re not asking for a full mental health report, evidence that the woman isn’t trafficked and proof of financial stability before they pay to fuck her, are they?

They couldn’t care less about the backstory. She’s just a body.

So, basically, you mean women who actively choose to do something with their bodies?

We all sell ourselves one way or another. ,

Don't use a predictive text machine to inform your views on whether women should be allowed to choose what to do with their own genitalia. That's daft.

It's been SBs in the UK I've spoken to. Some were students doing it for a limited period of time while studying. They actually felt fellow students working minimum wage jobs and other low paid jobs were foolish and wasting their time. They see themselves as being very wise and business savvy. They're not stupid or vulnerable.

Those who aren't students were strategically on point. I found speakiing with them very enlightening and the women I spoke to are not vulnerable. They're not doing it because they can't get any other job.

We do need to acknowledge that whilst some are vulnerable, this is definitely not the case with others. It's an informed choice.

I think the woman's frame of mind / mindset should be added to your list of situations when selling sex is understandable. I'm not saying that the women who choose to independently [no pimp, no brothel] sell sex have mental health issues, I'm talking about how they might have been conditioned to view sex work.

Think about the number of children who access online porn, how many are pressured into exchanging pictures and films of themselves. I can see children who have been involved in this might easily become untroubled by making money from it.

Even young adults are swayed by what their peers do and might see sex work as almost normal or certainly not a big deal. Especially if their peers are earning well from it.

I think there might be some women who go into sex work who are fully aware of the exploitation and violence that is rife in that industry but see it as a business that will suit them. Perhaps these are the women who might be judged as being no different to the men who buy sex. Or perhaps, even as few in number as they are, they are taking some of the power away from the men who buy sex. And men are never going to stop wanting to buy sex, so maybe what they are doing is a good thing.

Incorrect

Selling sex is not the same qualitatively as selling other kinds of service.

As long as both adults are consenting then what is the problem?

If rates of sexual violence were the same, if the sex industry were a billion pound industry fuelled by 50% male/female customers, if men experienced the same levels of harassment and assault and objectification from women, it would be equal.

I see, thank you. I hope this is the case for most, we will see.

I do think SBs probably are one type more likely to potentially be enjoying it as they are theoretically at least picking a single long term client.

Because it’s the women who are in danger in this situation (9 times out of 10). Targeting them would drive them further underground and increase the danger.

To you. Not to those choosing to go into the industry themselves.

I'm not saying it's equal, I think it IS worse to buy sex (whatever the sexes of buyer and seller).

Otoh don't women who freely choose to go into it deserve some blame for contributing to misogyny? Men sexually harassing, buying sex, raping women at far higher rates doesn't mean that women who contribute to misogyny are powerless and have no choice.

NB : I am NOT referring to the majority who do NOT have a choice.

I'm not saying we should criminalise selling sex.

'Or perhaps, even as few in number as they are, they are taking some of the power away from the men who buy sex. And men are never going to stop wanting to buy sex, so maybe what they are doing is a good thing.'

• Interesting point. I'm not sure if selling sex ever really takes power away in that sense. The woman is still dependent on men to choose her, find her attractive etc I agree it'll be very hard to stop client supply but it seems fatalistic to assume it couldn't be reduced at least

There is a double standard for sure. Women are often assumed to be the victim in the game.. Nowadays with OF etc there is plenty of willing participants who have made selling sexual acts glamorous again, sex sells, sex is addictive, it is the only situation where we blame the addict and not the dealer.

I’ll put a different spin on it. I’m in the medical negligence legal profession and dabbled in Escorting / or prostitution (I think you’d prefer that reference OP) while going through my lengthy studies.
(F2 training in medicine and then Law).

Yes I had sexual contact with majority. Alongside being tour guide that could flirt and make them feel special (if that’s what they wanted while in town). Dinner date companion. One even became long time friend (handicapped very successful businessman in his own right, who I ended up cooking dinners for). LOL
Some socially stunted in the dating arena and seeked companionship (why not, sometimes it gave them confidence to get out into the world after). Some were widowed. Divorced. Couldn’t deal with commiting themselves to another romantic relationship in life. Some married (those that mentioned this and had no qualms mentioning it in a certain way, I’d tend to decline repeat bookings, because found it crass to be mentioning it at all). Some were older business types never settled down, maybe over worked travelling here there and everywhere and or played the field dating it seemed in multiple countries whilst chasing a career, rather than commitment, and wanted a date without the faff on the odd occasion. I suspected a fair few were in some sort of ‘we live separate lives but co habit’ type scenarios but never pried.

In society I don’t think I’ve heard of men who buy sex being judged more so than any sex worker. Usually it’s the sex industry worker that would be, if it were to become known, more so. A man can go about his business and not be judged so much but as being, well, just a man. (Not saying all men participate in the sex worker/cam/only fans sphere / industry).

Of course they would be judged if married and found out.

But you have to remember those men have gone out their way to do that. They’re not being honey trapped into it. They are specifically seeking to pay women for sexual gratification. Check out some of the review sites some men who do it prolifically and applaud each other of their conquests describing women in pretty worrying language. Language I’m sure would shock their family round the table at dinner and wonder who the hell they thought they were living with, with the things that are typed out from their at times concerning minds when you read it.

But like I said not all men who partake in it are like that.

Women in that industry aren’t hanging round married men’s homes or work places touting for business. They’re simply choosing a way to make money for whatever reasons (and many who want to use the money legitimately to help get a mortgage, pay for studies, etc you’d be surprised pay a fair bit of tax).

I didn’t read the full thread to its entirety you mentioned. But if an ex worker within that industry perhaps was worried their friend dating a man who has history of seeing sex workers where it seems an addiction, isn’t going to be faithful to her friend and knows it potentially would risk her friend. Or they are a potential hazard (as some men try to pay women or even male sex workers behind partners backs whome offer sexual services with no protection, literally!). Or are clients who have been known to mention they are into worrying sexual interests and activities (ones that pertain to a sex worker never wanting to see them again and potentially warn others in the industry to worrying behaviour) that would 100% make me judge those sorts of men who buy sex not the women who sell it.

Sex work has been on this planet since as long as we can remember. Men and women having affairs with neighbours, work colleagues, people they meet on their commute. It’s hard to say what’s worse or can be judged more. Those that seek to cheat on their significant other in a transactional way, or those that do it with people they create a relationship with in their day to day life.

I’m guessing you’re married. I’m not. And of a certain age that most are at my age. Do I view men differently and am I wary of them or judge those that frequent sex workers to a point it is damaging to those in their personal life, at times yes. That has probably made me not want to settle for anyone I can see the tell tale signs of a potential addiction or too much activity in viewing or has potential signs of paying for services within the sex industry even if they were in a committed relationship with me.

But there’s also many marriages that are beyond the honeymoon phase and don’t engage in certain parts of a relationship later on (men and women) and openly or underlyingly have an agreement of what goes on to keep the commitment in other respects going, then that’s that.

Every scenario is different.

I agree with your point to some extent buy I think it's arguably infantilising to say that : ' living in a society that increasingly objectifies women, violence against WAG is super high, where men act in more sexually entitled ways than previously, and a society that has been pornified' means Bonnie has limited choice

I mean, I live in that society. I would never sell sex unless it was my only option to stay alive. We're all living in that society, and most UK women with a choice are not selling sex. It is horrible, but many women DO have agency still, to choose not to.

'Women arent equal economically and the final wammy is that now women are told that selling sex is 'empowering '. Its a patriarchal manipulation, encouraging women to internalise misogyny.'

• I agree with this but imo the same point still applies.

This is a very interesting post. I will reply later.

BTW I'm not married 🤣, I'm only 20.

So you’d put full blame on say the corner shop that sold the vapes, alcohol and cigarettes or even just fast food or even just food (if we’re really going into it). To people going in to buy it that have an issue with any of those things. And really ought not to. Simply because they sold it?

Lets not over dramatise all of the sex industry as in effect being ‘drug dealers’?
Like said in post above, many who do sell sex or are classed as working in the industry aren’t hanging out on corners of weak men’s houses, putting ‘special offer’ leaflets on their car windscreens/doors, or contacting clients hounding them by txt enquiring if they’re in the market for a quick (sexual) fix.