To think that it IS inconsistent to judge men who buy sex but not women who sell it (excluding women who are trafficked/traumatised/acting from financial necessity)?

[Carla786]

The thread today where the OP claimed to have been an escort had quite a few posters saying that they don't judge women who sell sex, only men who buy it.

Now, I think that most women selling sex are trafficked and/or doing so from financial necessity and/or suffering from sexual trauma.

So I don't judge them. But I do judge the minority of women, who DO exist, who sell sex when they have other viable options, are financially OK, often educated etc. Ditto men. They are all contributing willingly to an industry which devalues sex, intimacy and the human body.

It does seem inconsistent to exempt women (and men) who sell sex completely from judgement. Denying that women can willingly prop up harmful industries isn't feminist.

AIBU?

Yes, I don't like the implications that most men who buy sex are sex addicts. That seems to remove agency imo.

There is a lot of evidence that some men falsely claim sex addiction. A famous example is of course Harvey Weinstein!

He was a looser predator who used his position of power (in his industry) to get his way sexually with women if he could get away with it. I mean look at the man and the bad press he got for his whole persona and entitlement he felt he had in life. I don’t think even his wife was there for his charisma or looks to be quite frank.

In the scenario that you provide in your post: No, you're not being unreasonable.

I do think that's really quite rare though; the vast majority of women who voluntarily engage in sex work will have suffered some kind of trauma that's affected their boundaries and their relationship with their body and sex, even if they don't admit to it.

But I do think that women can willingly prop up harmful industries and engage in anti-women behaviour - all you have to do is look at all the women who support trans issues to see that. Women are all too often like turkeys voting for Christmas - they'll throw their fellow women (and themselves) under the bus to prop up a man.

Of course a woman who chooses to sell sex for financial gain is morally questionable.

It brings women down as a whole and reduces us to commodities et etc.

But given that these women do very well financially and probably out of view of the taxman as well, then I doubt they’re bothered.

In the end, money rules.

Selling blood. They shouldn't be allowed to sell blood. Or spare organs. Or babies.

(Or their bodies).

And the same goes for men.

The world is set up for differently for men and women. The ‘happy hooker’ type of women is so rare it’s almost not worth mentioning, but even then it’s hard to judge them in the same way as I would a punter as they are still putting themselves at great risk from every interaction in a way then men aren’t.

I’d also say that not one man knows for sure if the sex worker he’s using has been trafficked, coerced, is there due to trauma or desperation, or is a ‘happy hooker’ type yet still goes ahead and uses that worker regardless. That will always be worse and incomparable.

They are working within a misogynistic system - they have just decided to lean into it and try to gain from it after a lifetime of conditioning. The phrase 'don't hate the player, hate the game' comes to mind. Even when rare girls and women do freely engage in sex work they are usually managed individually or in a group by a man.

This seems arguably sexist itself though:

I see what you mean about conditioning & systems but this doesn't negate agency. Most women do not choose to do this given the choice, including women who have suffered great misogyny. Don't hate the player, hate the game can be used to excuse crime & all sorts of unethical behaviour.

It also seems arguably sexist to argue if they choose it they're usually being managed by a man. Some are, but some are not. And female pimps/madams have also been extremely unethical often : famous examples would be Madame Claude and Cynthia Payne.

So you stripped and webcammed? Lmao.

So basically, you dabbled your toes into the sex industry and giggled about how empowered you were by showing off your body to men who couldn't touch you? You didn't rent your vagina out to be penetrated multiple times a night/day by the penises of potentially diseased, definitely unappealing men? Or suck those penises?

Hm, I'm not sure you really have a dog in this fight. 'Webcamming' is not the same as prostitution.

This is why the term 'sex worker' is so misleading. We end up with little Miss 'I Webcammed' thinking she's the same as a 17-year-old girl being vaginally penetrated by men old enough to be her grandfather five nights a week for a relative pittance.

There are many ex-prostitutes who support the Nordic model.

No trauma here. Just didn’t come from a family that had ever gone to university and wanted to make something of myself. And support my parents who were elderly and had worked hard all their life (had a family later in life) so they could have some financial relief, not have to worry about helping me financially. And I could help to look after them when qualified.

Didnt think much of men at that age people were. Lost virginity late compared to many. Didn’t sleep around. Just wasn’t that impressed or interested with men and sex to be honest. Had great male friends and had one or two nice boyfriends for short stints but they just seemed to be more of a chore than what had plans for in life. Maybe that will come later.

No denying there is some sort of trauma for many and trauma may be categorised in differing ways.

Throwing fellow women under the bus to prop up a man? It’s not the 1950s 😵‍💫

This is my theory. So many vocal 'sex work is work' sex workers seem to be either:
Strippers
Webcammers/Onlyfans people (though there is still exploitation there)
Dominatrixes (yes these do have contact but less so)
Female pimps/'madams'

Quite the stereotyping pro I’ll give you that.

I don't understand your point, @hmmmm54321

It seems you're a prostitute? Well, if you're happy about the fact that men see you as a fuck-object that can be rented - who don't see you as a human, but rather an object to be used, then that's your problem.

But it's not good for women as a demographic to have other women insisting that prostitution is grand. Men who are happy to purchase and use women's bodies are misogynistic and dangerous, and women who willingly prop them up are also causing harm.

I'm thinking that those women who can detach emotionally and see sex work as a business won't be any more dependent on customers finding their "product" attractive and choosing to buy it than they would be in any other type of business. They will know their market and cater to it. If they find there isn't a market for what they are selling, as a business person rather than a vulnerable person, they would find another way to make an income.

I really would like to think the sex industry could be reduced but I believe it is actually growing. (Can't remember where I read that.) And I think WFH on webcams has added another layer to an already huge industry. I'm sure a lot of the people who are now selling sex in that way wouldn't have taken the risks that come with working on the streets or in brothels so the technology has opened the door to a whole new workforce.

If it is OK to ask : was it hard to have sex with all these men? You say you weren't much interested in sex at the time: I'm guessing you treated it like a job? I find it really hard to imagine being able to treat sex that way but I understand it's something some people can certainly do.

I can understand wanting to help family financially in that situation. I assume there was no other job that would have given you that amount of money?

How very noble of you. I wonder when they’re going to invite sex workers to school careers days, or produce books for toddlers ‘My mummy is a prostitute’, or introduce apprenticeships in how to be a pimp.
So much opportunity there!

Stereotyping? No.

You'll see a lot of women on Mumsnet defending prostitution, and they're generally privileged women who 'dabble', and not at all even close to the norm.

The ones who are the silent majority, who did have traumatised pasts, or were trafficked/coerced into it, who were forced into it as teenagers, who were immensely harmed by it, who struggled with mental health issues, or drug addictions, or were beaten down and harmed by their experiences rather than doing them on the side to support themselves through uni...well, your sort never want to hear about the ugly reality from them.

Or working for themselves, leaning in to it like any job as that’s what it is for some. A job that earns money. Not managed by any man nor woman. with the capability to tell a man they don’t want to take their booking?

Do some research and stop stereotyping it all.

the OP mentioned those not trafficked, coerced etc etc

It's not sexist to point out the effects of a sexist system. Our choices are not free when the system is biased.

It's interesting that you point out crime because I feel the same about a lot of crime. Lack of viable routes into education and employment, high crime rates, compounded by glamorisation of drug and gang culture, absolutely mean that marginalised young people lean into that system and then experience the consequences.

Choice and free will are interesting. I watch a lot of interviews with sex workers, most of whom have been abused since childhood, work with pimps, and were introduced to the lifestyle in their pre-teens. Most say it's a free choice and that they are happy. Would you believe that? Is it insulting or patronising to question that?

I do have a lot of personal experience and I have come out the other end of the 'free choice' idea personally.

On the point about penetration, several studies say UK prostitutes have high condom use for vaginal sex, but lower for oral & anal. I need to look more into this though

Most 'sex workers' began selling sex below the age of 13? That's terrible....

Absolutely. They're generally 'lifestyle' sex workers, who are the minority, and who have a very skewed, privileged view of the 'industry'.

It's a bit like autism, where the less-affected ones are most capable of speaking out, and all the ones who have been very severely affected are less capable...and so the public can end up getting a very inaccurate view of things.

So defining males as "are all contributing willingly to an industry which devalues sex, intimacy and the human body." Why is it that females, for centuries, use makeup, wigs, fine material outfits, and now fueling the plastic surgery community by a 3:1 margin versus men. It was never to do it for themselves but to feel desired, to manipulate, as well as to achieve getting what they want, i.e., selling a sexual fantasy. This is just like Only Fans models, with some of these females making 7-9 figure sums. So if a female goes out looking for a man to buy them drinks, buy them dinner, pay their home bills, etc. all center around the potential offer of sex. Also known for looking for "simps" who will be willing to part with their money. Six figure annual salary, six foot or taller, and six-pack abs. When they get asked what do they bring to the table, their response is usually "I bring all of this." So it's a lot less about blaming men for all of these problems, but more about how female stereotypes have learned to manipulate their sexual prowess to get ahead. Not necessarily selling the sexual act, but giving men the opportunity to believe they have a chance falls squarely on the women.

I think if women aren’t trafficked or in a situation where they have no other options then no. I don’t judge them or those that use them.

the conditions of sex work are what makes it reprehensible. If it existed in a situation outside of criminal or financial coercion with full agency then fine.

BUT because these are so few and far between. And then you get extremes like Bonnie blue and the other who engage in sexual extremism and risky degradation for attention. I don’t think the freedom is worth it. I’d rather ban it. There’s too much nuance and not enough outliers to make it worth it.

Six figure annual salary, six foot or taller, and six-pack abs.

• you think most women in the UK demand all this, do you?