Teachers should have to follow the same rules

[RhaenysRocks]

Just seen yet another fb post about a schools banning skirts. Cue lots of comments about teachers shouldn't be allowed to wear them then either. Ditto make up, nail varnish etc. AIBU to think this just shows how ridiculously petty and narrow minded many adults are and that if that's the message coming from home then it's not surprising the behaviour in schools is so poor?

This isn't a debate about if skirts / make up should or shouldn't be allowed but the level of thinking that ends up with those comments. Can adults really not appreciate the difference between professional, qualified adults having latitude in what they wear (and many schools are actually very strict about dress code for staff) and children following a uniform code they've agreed to when they join?
So, YABU it's a valid comment
YANBU It shows a lack of maturity and thinking skills in parents that contributes to discipline issues in school.

And I've just looked up the uniform policy of the nearest secondary school to me (DS is 18 months, I've got a while yet.) it's ties, blazers, white shirt (boys) or blouse (girls, what the fuck is the difference?) and plain black everything else except for the skirts. Coats aren't allowed in the school (where do they go then?) Oh, and of course it all comes from a special uniform shop. That'll be fun for me on one income.

Meanwhile my school uniform was a white polo neck or shirt, black jumper, black trousers or skirt, you could get those anywhere. Socks were supposed to be black or white but no one was checking (there were stripy socks around, I remember seeing a girl with black and turquoise and I wore black and pink.) Bags and coats could be anything, shoes were black, but they weren't allowed to be super high heels. In Year 11 I wore my skate shoes! And we were allowed to wear make up and nail polish, dye our hair and most kids wore some jewellery without too much trouble. (This was the 2000s.)

If the argument for school uniform is that it prepares students for the future then I think teachers have to follow the same rules, to show that the uniform actually prepares them for “the future” but we can all agree that that won’t happen any time soon. As a PP said then it’s hypocrisy for a teacher with brightly coloured hair to punish a student for the same.
I am a teacher in a non-uniform country, we have year 7s show up in full glam make up everyday and score the best on standardised tests. There are girls that, as true to teenage fashion, have bra straps on show and our boys still score among the highest in terms of reading comprehension. Boys show up with hair down to their bum and we don’t see them being bullied for it. But for the most part the kids just wear sports wear or jeans and a hoodie.
As teachers we model the behaviour and appearance we’d like to see from the students.

OK, how about the 14 year swaps and instead of being there for 32.5 hours a week, they're there for 37+? And if they don't do the work or meet the dress codes, they aren't sent home or given detention, they lose the ability to buy food or keep a roof over their families' heads and reduced prospects of getting another role to do it instead?

Enough people end up sustaining workplace injuries because they think the rules shouldn't have to apply to them. Unfortunately, FAFO post 16 can be permanently disabling or life ending - better that they learn you have to follow rules you don't particularly like before they're deciding that it's only a couple of dots of weld, no need for a mask or protective footwear or they'd obviously never get 2.5t of stuff dropped on their foot and converse are so much more comfortable than steelies.

I disagree with you and that comment. Children don't have a choice regarding uniform, they don't "sign up for it". It's a ridiculous and backward tradition that's being pushed by schools purely for the power and control it gives them over children.

Of course kids need to go to school, and 99% of schools require a uniform, so don't pretend they agree to it. It's as stupid as the comment about teachers that you criticise.

Uniforms are so outdated and unnecessary. And it is very hypocritical for adults to tell kids they have to dress a particular way in school, but not follow similar dress code themselves. Most teachers at local school dress in hoodies, shorts/leggings but kids have to be in trousers/skirts/dresses - no leggings allowed for them!

Exactly. I've worked in the food industry, I understand uniform for hygiene reasons (hat, hairnet, apron, short sleeves, for example,) I've also worked in a warehouse where I had to wear safety boots and if I went in the carpark I put on a hi-vis jacket. That place was roasting in the summer so we could wear t-shirts and shorts. Great! And shows more flexibility than most schools do towards the welfare of their pupils.

Well by that reckoning my DS is being taught that wearing a tie is necessary to do wood work and metal work, while using equipment that his tie or sleeves could get caught in. That wearing a blazer for painting or clay work in art is sensible and that cooking in a suit is normal.

I don't think either teachers or students should be heavily sexualised for school. A make up should be discreet rule for all parties might do.

I do, of course, accept that there are things that school children are not old enough to do that are fine for adults. (Sex, driving). But I also think that the general principle should be that rules should be for good reasons, and should be for everyone.

I would let a 13 year old wear some make up to school, if it made her happy. I accept there's a mid way, as I probably wouldn't let a 5 year old. But a 5 year old is less likely to want to and would make a mess trying.

Wonder what happens if a kid injures themselves because their stupid tie gets caught in the machinery? (Drill press, lathe, circular saw, jigsaw, the possibilities are endless!)

Mixed sex. Upskirting, probably. Should address the problem of upskirting realistically e.g. ban phones in school; have boys taught that girls' boundaries are to be respected - and these enforced. Also make sure that changing rooms and loos are strictly separate sex.

I have a lot of sympathy for this viewpoint.

However, I would also counter that a year 8 girl is not a small child any more, and there is absolutely no way surrounded by other year 8 girls and boys that they can be.

They are starting puberty, noticing the other sex, and they are likely to want to express it with clothing, at school more than anywhere else.

But also, it's fine to say, we don't want you to go around with your pants on show. Just - well - that can apply to everyone!

That doesn’t address the double standard or explain why it’s ok for any adult to wear a skirt but not a teen

Surely it's not that difficult to work out.

In all my years working in schools I've never seen a single Teacher's knickers or arse cheeks. Not once. But when I worked in secondary schools many of the girls wore skirts rolled up so short that when they walked up the stairs you got a full view of gusset and arse cheeks and if you dared to suggest they roll their skirt down you'd be accused of being a "paedo" or "slut shaming" them. That's why some schools have decided it's ok for adult staff to wear skirts but not pupils.

If Teachers start walking around school in tiny skirts with their arses hanging out then publicly accusing the Head Teacher of being a "nonce" for noticing I imagine skirts will be banned for them too.

For crying out loud..this sort of thing is on the same level as the comments I was originally posting about. The idea that teachers are in the job just as some sort of weird power game, that we enjoy or get pleasure out of punishing kids. I'm certain that there will be some individuals and even some schools or academy chains that go OTT but please leave off with the narrative that we're all some part of a giant conspiracy to brainwash and beat submission into the nation's children. The vast vast majority of us do it because we love our subjects, like passing it on, enjoy the company and growth that we witness over the years.

Schools are organisations with 1000+ young people running around who do not operate on the same cognitive and behavioural level as the degree educated adults trying to keep things safe and purposeful. Many of the systems and rules may seem petty on an individual level but are necessary in the context of the whole. That's what is so often missing from these exchanges. You can't ask schools for the same flexibility and understanding that would work on a familial level. Its a totally different dynamic.

I do wonder if it's time to ditch uniform altogether. The 6th formers dress so much more sensibly in their own clothes than the year 11s do in supposed uniform.

I can certainly see why they'd want to ditch skirts as a uniform option. So much quibbling about what's an acceptable length - and some are really so not acceptable round here. Teachers shouldn't be put in the position of having to point out to kids that their underwear is showing. And obviously no teacher would turn up in a skirt 5 sizes too small and rolled up to show their undies, so the rule doesn't need to apply to teachers.

There's also the fact that children have to be ready for whatever lesson comes their way. Some lessons involve movement, they need to be wearing something practical. Whereas the teachers know their own lesson plans and if they have anything physical planned.

I work in a non uniform school and it might surprise everyone but I’ve never seen a skirt that short on a student, we do however get the occasional high rise thong above their low rise jeans… but the boys mostly have their trousers so low down that you can practically see all of their underwear. They dress the same as I did their age in the early 2010s and it makes me laugh.
No we don’t stop them, yes we have some of the highest learning outcomes in our country.

I'll never understand the British obsession with school uniform.
Most European countries don't have a school uniform.
There is no legislation covering the wearing of uniform in the UK, imo it should be scrapped as a school regulation.

but the boys mostly have their trousers so low down that you can practically see all of their underwear.
Oh god I remember that one. 90s revival time! Doesn't seem to have caught on round here.

The only dress code rule at my school is no denim. What sort of school vets hair dye??

I don’t agree with banning skirts for pupils. If I was told not skirts as staff I would walk.

Every one I've ever worked in.

Well I think you are being unreasonable but mostly because I don't particularly agree with school uniform at secondary and definitely don't believe wearing a uniform prepares you for the world of work or teaches you to be respectful.

Why the rule change? If it is to do with upskirking that is totally wrong. It's punishing girls for the inapproprate actions of the boys.

I don't think strict dress code/uniform rules should be forced on to the teachers but I don't think they should be forced on the students either. For what it's worth, I sent my son to a secondary with no uniform - their dress code was things like don't show underwear and midriff and don't wear flip flops in tech! So much time is wasted trying to enforce uniform rules when it could be spent teaching and what is wrong with allowing young people to express themselves with their hair and clothes as long as their are no safety issues?

It's just a cultural weirdness, uniform serves no actual purpose. Other nations have no need for it. The UK has a particular uniform obsession.

Schools are organisations with 1000+ young people running around who do not operate on the same cognitive and behavioural level as the degree educated adults trying to keep things safe and purposeful. Many of the systems and rules may seem petty on an individual level but are necessary in the context of the whole. This is silly really in relation to some of the petty nonsense schools waste energy on, but especially uniform - sock colour just isn't important to anyone with any sense.

Also being logical, some of the teachers will be excellent, some average and some completely unsuitable - as in every other profession.

Not convinced by the idea that a school would breach risk assessments regarding safety around equipment like that. And there are an awful lot of aprons for sale in the school supply catalogues - for Food Tech, DT and Art - for them not to be normal wear (usually part of the Y7 uniform list wherever I've worked or my kids went to school).

Even way back in the Dark Ages when I was a kid, the rules were standard uniform for standard lessons and then no ties, no watches, wear aprons and even if you had long or fuller hair for cultural reasons, once you were in those rooms, you tied it back to avoid scalping or degloving (and the DT department kept a stash of hairbands precisely because it wasn't up for negotiation. OK, when I was a teenager, that involved a couple of pictorial representations of what degloving was, which would never wash now, but it's still an absolute everywhere I've been.

No one says anything we are trained and taught not to 🤷‍♀️

The whole uniforms and rules environment is weird. Why do children in Britain and /former/british colonies need to have rules and uniforms while children in most of other countries are able to dress sensibly without them?

Another group of countries with uniforms are countries with communist regimes.