Teachers should have to follow the same rules

[RhaenysRocks]

Just seen yet another fb post about a schools banning skirts. Cue lots of comments about teachers shouldn't be allowed to wear them then either. Ditto make up, nail varnish etc. AIBU to think this just shows how ridiculously petty and narrow minded many adults are and that if that's the message coming from home then it's not surprising the behaviour in schools is so poor?

This isn't a debate about if skirts / make up should or shouldn't be allowed but the level of thinking that ends up with those comments. Can adults really not appreciate the difference between professional, qualified adults having latitude in what they wear (and many schools are actually very strict about dress code for staff) and children following a uniform code they've agreed to when they join?
So, YABU it's a valid comment
YANBU It shows a lack of maturity and thinking skills in parents that contributes to discipline issues in school.

Yes but other counties have different cultures , most significantly a much greater respect for education

It annoyed me that our DCs school sixth form had a no demim rule (because the vibe was supposed to be “office dress” when
a)half the teachers wore denim jeans/skirts/jackets and
b)people in (some) offices have worn denim for years.

I doubt that teachers are folding over the waistband so it shows your knickers.

I am a secondary school teacher. I have clothes that I only wear for work eg black trousers, smart top, jacket, cardigans. Due to abdominal surgery I now also have dresses that go to past my knees. This is my uniform. If pupils are too hot they know they can take their blazers off in my lessons. It is all about common sense.

At the end of the bloomin’ day we are merely highly intelligent mammals .

Mother Nature starts ‘telling’ us via our hormones to both attract a mate and ‘fit in with our peers ‘ when we hit our teens . These needs vie with trying to keep teachers and parents ‘happy ‘.
This for me is a big reason that UK girls school uniforms in particular are a v bad idea . Shoving 13-18 year old girls into hideous outfits they’d never choose to wear just when their hormones and need for peer acceptance are kicking off big time is setting up completely unnecessary battles between staff and students .
Girls are going to roll their skirts up as soon as they’re out of the school gate (at the very least )to flag that they’re both cool and sexually attractive. It was ever thus .

That ‘school girls ‘ are massively represented in this way in a whole genre of grim pornography is one reason I believe we should reconsider the whole uniform business .

It could be completely avoided by abandoning uniforms and allowing young people to wear clean jeans , T shirts etc and safely express their individuality . It works across Europe …

Im so glad my kids are at school in Scotland where we have a much more relaxed attitude to school uniform. The kids at the high school all wear joggers/leggings, school hoody and any T-shirt as long as the correct colours. The school got rid of requirements for ties and blazers after Covid to recognise the CoL crisis and because they have this crazy idea that comfortable clothing accessible/adaptable for all is conducive to learning. Personally I love a tie and blazer and I hate joggers, but I have two kids with some sensory issues about their clothing and I am mighty grateful they can wear clothing which don’t stress them out, and they don’t stand out.

i would have no respect for a school with totally arbitrary/tyrannical dress codes for their staff or their pupils (I went to one, it was a messed up place).

I’m a teacher and agree that it’s ridiculous to say skirts should be knee length. But there’s also an argument that school should be a place where girls are safe from the pressure to style themselves for the male gaze. Some say wearing very short skirts and make up is self expression, and that’s true, but that self expression is often (not always) about developing a sexualised look as they grow into young adults. I’m not talking about adults sexualising school uniform btw, I’m talking about girls sexualising their own image. That’s fine, and perhaps inevitable, and their choice (or is it, really?), but school is not the place for it. For me, there is something quite heartbreaking about seeing a Y8 girl with a full face of make up and skirt rolled up, feeling they have to look ‘attractive’ and adult. When girls feel they have to do this, ime, it often indicates vulnerability. Kids need a space where they can be - have to be - kids.

I assume the people saying this have the same bedtime as her DCs, only eat pureed food if their children are young, only wear socks not stockings or tights and definitely no lingerie. And if they work I assume they insist on using the bosses office.

I agree teachers should be smart, but they are adults and hopefully to be trusted to wear appropriate clothes, some girls (and boys) not so much.

I always told my kids that teachers had earned the right to wear what they liked, within limits, to work. I think it’s ridiculous that some people can’t differentiate between children going to school to learn and adults going to school to work.

I'm a teacher. My last school banned skirts. As a staff member I wore knee length skirt so tried to lead by example. The students did not take the example and wore their skirt so short you couldn't avoid seeing their underwear. Then whenever a male member of staff challenged anything about their behaviour e.g Why haven't you started that task? Or Please stop screaming in the corridor! Those girls had learnt they could instantly accuse the male members of staff of being a paedo and looking at their knickers. They would kick up a massive fuss, go to slt, waste everyone's afternoon. Parents would back them too.

I always tell my students that I don't particularly care what the uniform is...I've been teaching long enough to remember when many secondary schools just had polo shirts and sweat shirts...but I agree with having the uniform to avoid bullying and children feeling excluded for lack of branded clothes etc. I went to a non uniform primary as a child and this was a massive issue even then.

It's possible to both think that school rules on uniform are too restrictive and that "well, teachers are allowed to do it" is an invalid argument against those rules.

I agree that petty infringements like socks being the wrong height or hair ties in the wrong colour aren't worth being punished. I also think it's unfair to prevent children dressing appropriately for hot weather - in part because it totally belies arguments about uniforms being part of being ready to learn, because no one is ready to learn in a blazer and tie on a 35 degree day.

The argument should be that wearing the correct uniform makes you part of the student community, is inclusive because everyone is wearing the same thing, shows you're ready to learn, and means that everyone is dressed appropriately and safely for the environment. A uniform is an easier way to do that than litigating every case of too tight jeans or too high heels. What teachers wear or don't wear doesn't have to come into that.

I work in education.

I think the balance is somewhere in between.

No - I don’t think teachers should have to stop nailing varnish and hairstyles and be held to the exact account of students but there should be some kind of expected dress code (which my school has).

But I also don’t subscribe to the need for students going through puberty and body confidence issues being prescribed one style of dress for all and the need for shirt tie and blazers.

I also don’t think it’s necessary to give students a late mark for being late if there’s an accident or the bus is late or the train cancelled or for forgetting a pen as an unusual thing for them. Not once in my 20 years of working in education have I been punished in that circumstance. Once I was 4 hours late because my car broke down!!!

if expectations were realistic I don’t think we’d have so many fight against the rules not have such high issues with anxiety.

I agree, but I think strict uniform policies PUT girls under the male gaze and makes them focus on sexualising it. They wear baggy joggers and hoodies when they are allowed to choose. It’s nearly always male teachers enforcing uniform rules, and the idea it’s ok for a man to measure a girl’s skirt is outrageous to me.
I live near a private school and I once saw an older male teacher absolutely berating some young girls for having their skorts on in public, when their legs should be covered. You won’t be surprised to know that the rules are not the same for boys wearing shorts.

What age would you allow children to wear makeup and sexualised clothes to school? If the parents allow it that's fine out of school (well it's not really) but putting that pressure on all the girls in the class in order to fit in and be cool is not OK. They are children let them be children for the increasingly short time they can.

The pupils are children and are expected to be appropriately dressed as children in school. Teachers are adults and are expected to be appropriately dressed as adults in school. Lets not mix this up.

But you’re missing the wider context by confining the discussion in this manner. The problem is that some teachers’ presentation is wildly inappropriate. How can these schools impose such hypocritical policies?

Children. Are. Not. Equal. To. Adults.

Children don’t have full responsibility for their actions. Their parents, or those in loco parents, are responsible for their safety and well-being, amongst other things.

The minute a person becomes fully responsible for themselves they can decide which rules they follow, because they will carry the can for breaking the rules. Until then, it’s the adult who carries the can for them who sets the rules - for THEIR benefit.

They're going to have a terrible shock when they leave school.and the only job they can get involves them wearing black crimplene trousers, black plastic shoes and a crimplene polo shirt with their minimum wage place of employment logo on it.

It's the grown ups making these ridiculous comments that are the ones that generally don't parent their children properly and expect the school to do that.

Sending your child to your local secondary school is optional. If they don't like the uniform, phone policy, or whatever else they moan about, then they are welcome to send their child to another school or home educate them.

I was a teacher for 25 years. In my early teaching days I believed that uniform was pointless and children should be allowed to wear what they liked to school, USA style.

My school went on to allow sixth form to dress how they pleased. We soon had pupils walking around the school in crop tops, sports bras, scrunch butt all-in-one clingy leotard suit type things. In the summer there were hot pants, denim shorts that showed the butt cheeks. It was ridiculous. Children, even older children are often unable to choose appropriate attire. They push boundaries (obviously) and fail to adhere to any form of ‘code’. After multiple warnings, the school pulled that privilege and brought a uniform back in.

Adults on the other hand are able to apply thinking skills and do dress appropriately for work. So any parent complaining that staff and pupils should follow the same rule, are in my opinion, nuts.

As an aside, I often wish my school would ban skirts (albeit I’m not permanent now). Extremely short skirts are fashionable and you can see the girls bottoms and when they sit down you can see their underwear as the skirts ride up so much. I’m fed up of asking them to pull their skirts down and being called a pervert for noticing…even though it is impossible not to see. I’d put money on this being the reason for any bans and equality excuses have been given.

Adults are adults and are capable of making suitable choices regarding their dress wear. Kids are kids and push boundaries. When adults come in wearing skirts short enough to show the bottom of their buttocks, then we can apply the same rules.

It also removes the issues of bullying or name calling if you aren’t wearing the right ‘brand’ (which I can remember from school, and happened to DD at primary).

that is simply not true. Bullies bully, and they can pick a victim with surgical precision. All wearing uniform is no protector of that. I went to a school where you could actually hire the uniform. It didn't stop bullying.

Agree with pp that if the trouser thing is to stop upskirting i agree it is unacceptable. But i disagree with teachers who find it impossible to tell girls off for showing their pants. So, they call you a nonce? is that going to stick? If you can't tell kids not to show you their arse cheeks there is a whole lot more wrong with schools than telling art teachers they can't dye their hair.

@24kPalamino and yet my DCs went to school in Europe and the staff had zero issues if anyone came in wearing the outfits you described.

They were sent home for wearing clothes that didn't conform and that was that. But in reality? they generalla all wore trainers, jeans/joggers/leggings, t-shirts and hoodies.

It probably depends on the individual school and the catchment area does it not?

My cousin went to school in Germany and they never experienced the issues that British schools do, particularly around behaviour.

Additionally, we cannot just send children home. And the numbers are too large to put them all into internal exclusion. Hence why blanket rules often are brought in.

But i disagree with teachers who find it impossible to tell girls off for showing their pants. So, they call you a nonce? is that going to stick? If you can't tell kids not to show you their arse cheeks there is a whole lot more wrong with schools than telling art teachers they can't dye their hair.

Lucky you never to have been in that position. An accusation like that - even when it's patently and provably untrue - can destroy a teacher's career.

How does an adult wearing a skirt explain to a teen why they are not allowed to wear a skirt?

If you are called a nonce as a teacher, it can quite easily end up as a three - four month suspension, whilst first the police investigate, then Servoca and then the school. I have seen this happen before. The teacher ends up retuning to school, but not before their reputation has suffered, they have gone through hell and their mental health has taken an absolute battering.