Teachers should have to follow the same rules

[RhaenysRocks]

Just seen yet another fb post about a schools banning skirts. Cue lots of comments about teachers shouldn't be allowed to wear them then either. Ditto make up, nail varnish etc. AIBU to think this just shows how ridiculously petty and narrow minded many adults are and that if that's the message coming from home then it's not surprising the behaviour in schools is so poor?

This isn't a debate about if skirts / make up should or shouldn't be allowed but the level of thinking that ends up with those comments. Can adults really not appreciate the difference between professional, qualified adults having latitude in what they wear (and many schools are actually very strict about dress code for staff) and children following a uniform code they've agreed to when they join?
So, YABU it's a valid comment
YANBU It shows a lack of maturity and thinking skills in parents that contributes to discipline issues in school.

This is exactly what happens and in a community of teenagers and some of their parents who aren't much more mature in their thinking, it's enough. Parents WhatsApp groups and social media are poisonous and a (male especially)teacher who tries to say anything at all in this area is likely to find themselves in an untenable position.

How about, many of the girls at this school have taken advantage of the uniform policy and have chosen to wear skirts that are inappropriate. Staff have not done this and for that reason pupils are no longer allowed to wear skirts but staff are. I understand this will be a disappointment to the young ladies who are able to adhere to the rules, but unfortunately we are now going to have to implement a blanket rule.

You see, what I have just said above in my opinion is very reasonable. But to parents for some reason this is not reasonable. And so by just having the ban and saying it’s because you want everybody the same, you avoid the typical parent complaints that accuse staff of being paedophiles for noticing the length of the girls skirts.

I work in an area with massive poverty. Uniform (provided by the school where needed) is the only way. Some of these kids have only one other set of clothes that wouldn't be suitable for school. They don't get their clothes washed (often uniform is swapped and washed at school). It is heartbreaking to see what the kids wear out of school if I see them.
Sixth form is office dress - loads of the are still in school trousers and shirts with a jumper or jacket. Not everyone can afford to be in their own clothes.

Have you ever seen teachers buttocks? Because believe me I see girls butt cheeks every day. When you ask them kindly to roll their skirts down, you usually get an eye roll and a smirk to their friends. I watch boys snigger at girls, a free show on offer. Most of the female staff at school wear trousers or midi dresses or skirts. I know of one private school which is opting for coulottes….

Only if they're wearing elasticated 'belts' as skirts (as seen at a school near me)

Otherwise I expect them to wear appropriate clothing without being told

Ultimately, I tend to avoid uniform penalties, unless it is overly extreme. I would far rather focus on behaviour and effort.

But I have got into trouble over that in the past.

But, for instance, there have been times I needed to answer my phone in class (sick child) and I will push ahead of pupils in the lunch queue if I am having a frantic day. I will be polite and explain and apologise afterwards but I wouldn’t accept being forced to follow pupil rules as a teacher.

Anyone who wants experienced dedicated teachers needs to think about what these teachers need to stay in the profession, and respect is a big part of the answer.

Why the skirt ban anyway? In my working life I have never worn trousers. I don't think I could stay in a school which insisted on them being worn, unless jogging/yoga bottoms which just wouldn't feel professional.

Skirts became very contentious with the MeToo movement. So many schools stopped policing skirts and we ended up with buttocks on full display.

So some opted for trousers, some for pupil uniform committees, some gave up and some stuck to their guns.

It’s a tricky area.

Teachers don't wear short miniskirts to work and the same treatment should go for the female students. Parent your daughter and tell her it's school not a nightclub.

As plenty of posters have said, the issue is most likely regarding the constant rolling up to ludicruous levels. My dd chooses not too and gets hassle for wearing it 'long'. I have never seen a teacher wear a skirt so short she's in danger of flashing her underwear.
However, as per my op, it's not about the rights and wrongs of each issue but the inability of some adults to appreciate the need for different rules. Take water bottles or toilets. An adult will take an occasional sip and get on with work. They will pop to the loo, leave it clean and cone back. Some teens will use the bottle as a fidget toy, distraction, noise maker, weapon. They'll go to the loo in every lesson missing lots of learning, meeting up with a friend, having a vape, graffiti or vandalise or bully. Hence different rules.

You make good points here - food for thought! And I agree it should be female teachers having a quiet word about skirt length.

Having said that, it depends on the school. Lots of the girls in my school wear skin tight hotpants and crop tops on non uniform days, so I’m not sure the baggy joggers theory applies to all! Conversations/rules about modesty and appropriate wear would still need to be had We also have a lot of boys who, out of school, are involved in (at risk of being groomed for) antisocial behaviour - out of school they wear that recognisable ‘look’ of grey/black tracksuit rolled up, hoodie, balaclava that is tied to that lifestyle. A ‘uniform’ for low level criminals, if you like, a way of forming and identifying with a tribe and its moral values. In school, in uniform, you’d never guess at what they are dealing with in their home lives/communities, as their behaviour is totally different, they follow school rules and are polite. I genuinely believe part of that is they are wearing the school uniform, they are part of our community and it’s separate from their outside identity. If the girls I’ve described, and the boys I’ve described, were in their own clothes, I think the whole dynamic of the school would be different, and not in a good way.

First of all, if you give kids an inch they'll take a mile. Wherever skirts are allowed, they hoik them up so that they are inappropriate. No value judgement - that's just what they do, and so did I! Whereas teachers are generally able to follow rules about professional wear and decency. If they're allowed make up, you have a gaggle of orange faced girls (and some boys) who spend all day adjusting it. Again - it is a rite of passage to cake yourself in make up and I have no issue with them doing it outside of school.

Second, there are an awful lot of things that adults are allowed to do that children aren't. I can leave the site at lunchtime, I can drink tea in class, I can wear make up and heels. (not that I do wear heels) The list is endless. There's nothing wrong with kids realising that adults have a bit more freedom than them.

I got in to a back and forth with one kid who found it very unfair that I had a coke on my desk and he's allowed water. I said to him, "Graduate from school, go to college, then university, complete a degree and get a job here, then you can drink coke too."
I earned the right to some pop in my classroom!😂

And FWIW, I'm covered in tattoos and even have a few non-ear piercings. (Studs, for H&S) Lots of schools are loosening up about that.

YANBU

However, I think some rules in many secondary schools are ridiculous. For example, DDs school does not allow them to wear coats indoors. She has been picked up on it before when her school bus has been late so her priority has been to rush inside to class. Likewise wearing blazers on the rare days it is hot. I can see why, as a teen, it would seem unfair to have to wear a blazer when the teacher is wearing a short sleeved blouse.

If the children are supposed to be wearing a certain thing to set them up for wearing 'professional clothes' then the teacher who are professionals ought to be following that dress code too. Or else they are just showing that the school dress code is petty and unnecessary. I do not agree that everyone should blindly follow the school rules just because the school made them without challenging any that are not right. Though I have told my kids to tell us to challenge them rather than doing it themselves.

This - what's the difference in the end between banning skirts and other laws and cultures that enforce women wearing specific things to cover themselves?

The level of pettiness around school uniforms will never not be totally bemusing. Years ago I read about a boy being sent home for wearing trousers the wrong shade of grey and it's really just a symbol of the fucking weirdness of schools at times.

Also the idea that school is getting kids ready for the workforce is the most bullshit thing to ever be bullshitten.

Sorry, quote vanished - I was responding to someone talking about uniform rules.

It’s a silly argument.

Teachers need to wear clothing and shoes which are appropriate for their own work place and work practices. A senior leader who doesn’t teach and spends most of the day in meetings/ offices might wear formal shoes/ suits. This would be ridiculous for an early years teacher who sits on the carpet and engages with children via hands on provision which could involve water / messy play. A science teacher might need a lab coat- I worked in a lab where I frequently had to climb on stools to set the switches, so formal shoes would have been a death trap.

Schoolchildren should wear uniform as it’s practical, instils a sense of belonging, and acts as an equaliser in terms of reducing the differences in outward appearance in children with different financial backgrounds.

However , some uniforms are utterly ridiculous, with needlessly strict rules about buttons, ties and blazers.

The young people didn’t ‘agree to it when they joined’ though, their parents did?

What frustrates me about uniform is so much of it is out of the child’s control.

DS has to wear specific navy socks for PE and he lost his when getting changed (yes, his fault, but also child with ADHD new to secondary, let’s apply some understanding)

went to buy more and there weren’t any in stock so put 2 pairs on order.

I sent him in with navy football socks and a note. He got detention for wearing the wrong socks (not the right shade of navy).

At all times he showed respect for the rules.

DD has to wear tights year round. I hate this rule. It’s expensive (AU-DHD means they last 2 days at best) and very uncomfortable for her. I do not understand the need for this rule at all.

See also not allowing trainers.

And don’t get me started on the detentions for the bus being late or DS breaking his pens (see again, ADHD. He has not been allowed a fidget as yet)

There was a teacher at my daughter’s school who was always dripping in jewellery including toe rings and huge fake eyelashes - I do think in this instance she should have toned it down because students do question it and then they feel like they can do the same.

There’s a safeguarding reason for the no coats indoors rule. It means every young person in the building is recognisable as a member of the school. Like staff wearing lanyards. This might seem extreme - but I don’t think many members of the public are fully aware of the kind of risks many schools are managing. I worked in a school in an area of high crime, where a young person not from the same school got in with a knife. They, along with lots of the kids at the school, were wearing a coat indoors, so it took longer to recognise them as an outsider. After that, the school said no coats indoors. I doubt they’d have bothered to obtain a school uniform in order to pull the same stunt.

My complaint is sock colour. Especially as there was a rule that socks couldn’t be seen. Or and the blazer and sweater jumper not allowed to be removed in a boiling hot classroom. My DD use to often feel faint. Because she didn’t drink any water as no time between classes to visit toilet.
The detention if late, even if bus didn’t turn up. Which I had screenshot of chat talk with bus company. Was told she should walk a mile on a national speed limit road, no street light and no path. Which was very bendy and dangerous.

I do hate the whole school uniform thing in this country.

I do see girls flouting the rules with tiny skirts, which just cover their pants, when the uniform is a pleated skirt to the knee or trousers ( our school)

But I also think the whole concept of school uniform is antiquated.

I’ve seen school kids abroad, in jeans t shirts and colourful rucksacks, I’d much prefer that for our kids.

Instead, we have sweltering clothes in the summer ( compulsory blazer) , and the lack of facility to store wet coats in the winter ( no cloak room, or lockers)

A local school did away with blazers and a need for badges, and were happy for the kids to have black trousers or skirts and plain black jumpers and a polo shirt.
Readily available in so many shops and stores.

Less expense for the parents, and a small step in the right direction.

Not many workplaces have strict uniform requirements anymore, and if they do, they have policies setting out what is required.

We need to take one little bit of stress away from our kids, and do something like a jeans and t shirt uniform.

Relatively cheap, colourful and affordable.

My son sent me a video a few years ago. There doesn't seem to be many differences between the two. Children can go home and inmates can't.

https://youtube.com/shorts/06GrPJYwb-E?si=IBJSiWvRYjxVbM--