What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

You're very naive.

Stop apologising for men and let her work through her rage.

She's not stupid. She has a male loved ones and friends. She knows the difference.

ALL women should be enraged at the moment.

I for one am glad she's prepared to stand for what's right.

I also have two sons (single mum brought them up alone from tiny).. But I know I have brought them up well. They aren’t mysogynistic, chauvenistic or sexist - they had a very good role model in me. Both their gf’s are very happy and my eldest’s gf recently told me how awesome a bf he is (they live together). My younger one also treats his gf very well, with respect. I know I have brought up two good guys but I parented them in a very mindful way when it came to prejudices, stereotypes, sexism etc. I’ve always felt you have to bring up boys using a lot of emotional intelligence to produce decent human males. I also had very good male role models growing up so had strong reference points (just a shame their dad was a let down). It’s important to ‘lock in’ when you raise boys, you can’t sleepwalk it.

I utterly disagree with the posters who claim that this is a man-hating thread. To suggest that there is any equivalence between the distrust of men as a group, and the hatred of women which is apparent from at best a significant minority of men (so frequently with lethal consequences) is absurd. I don't perceive hatred on here, but just disappointment, at the levels of hatred men evidently have and the amount of evil that is directed by men against women and girls. I have no idea where all their hatred and contempt comes from; I am just disappointed and mystified, rather than hostile.

Speaking for myself I don’t hate men. My view is almost the opposite: it is that, given the levels of misogynistic spew that contaminate the cultural sea we all swim in, it is a miracle that so many men turn out decent. I have also been fortunate enough to have good & trustworthy men in my life. But that doesn’t mean that I trust men as a group, as years of my own bitter experience (starting with an indecent assault when I was 11) alongside the numerous accounts of others and news stories, have taught me that I just can’t.

I find it particularly egregious when women and girls are blamed for their distrust of men, and at the suggestion that this has anything to do with misandry. I know I am never going to let myself be put in a position where I am vulnerable ever again. And you can blame violent men together with their apologists for that distrust, and not me.

Completey agree

At 6 I was SAd by a 'friend' of the family
At 8 a different family 'friend' exposed himself to me while he was babysitting
At 11 I was flashed by an adult man in the park
At 13, 14 and 15 I was slapped and/or pushed by older teen boys at School
At 14 I was groomed into getting into bed with an adult man who tried to have sex with me, my poor little body tensed up so hard it couldn't happen, thankfully.
At 20 I was raped while he thought I was asleep by my partner, who had also been violent towards me.

I'm just a normal woman who had a perfectly normal upbringing and now lives a normal and mundane life. I don't blame her.

When I was a broke student I used to work on one of those sex chat websites.

Trust me, this could NOT be more true.

Dads, grandads etc (I'm sure 'loving' to their family etc, in fact many had pics of their family in their photos including children!) no matter how old they were they were just lusting over 18 year olds (and the idea of them being younger) and their tightness etc. So gross.

It forever changed how I see men. It was not a few. It was many, many, many. I now feel that when I look at a man in his 70s/80s I know what they are thinking and their real desires. I reckon a huge majority of them want to fuck a young woman, and think that the young woman would want them in return (based on the way they spoke) even if they are fat/old/hideous. I do think they think they owed it!

I also think a lot of women are naïve to this. (all the man in my family would NEVER!) Well, you don't know what they get up to behind closed doors or on their phone/ipad. And you'll never know what goes on in their brains.

It’s not misandrist to acknowledge that 90% of violent crime is committed by men…

But it is to fail to acknowledge that of that 90%, they represent a tiny proportion of the country's or indeed the world's male population.

You are deluded. Utterly, utterly deluded if you think you can guarantee that your son and his peers have never and will never abuse women. To even be able to make that claim is so troubling. I sincerely hope you have absolutely nothing to do with the health or wellbeing of women in your working or personal life because to make a blanket claim like that about a group of men you happen to know is outrageous and demonstrates a distinct and significant lack of awareness. It’s genuinely shocking.

Still hoping dd is a lesbian. I don't want to see her hope in love destroyed like mine has been repeatedly. Men really need to open their eyes and do the work if they actually want to have families and long worthwhile relationships.

Great quote

I'm amazed someone would have this view of their own son.

Do you really sit there secretly judging him as a male, half-expecting him to turn into the next Jeffrey Epstien? Maybe you actually express this to him? If not, do you ever wonder if he can tell that you disapprove of him?

You say you love him endlessly, but I suspect from they way you talk that you'd love him slightly more if he was a girl. Perhaps he suspects that too.

This sums it up for me. Beautifully written.

There is nothing wrong with that this poster has written. She has said that she is aware her son has the potential to be another shitty man, which he does, because he is male, but she and her husband have the awareness and are doing everything they can to try to make him one of the good ones. It’s the right thing to do.

I have a son too and feel the same. If you aren’t aware that any boy has the potential to grow up into a bad man, you are naive. Being aware, talking about the issues with them, modelling and expecting good behaviour and respect for women, letting them know why women often feel threatened by men’s behaviour etc gives the best chance of raising a son to be a good man. I don’t disapprove of my son, I disapprove of how many men behave and my son doesn’t behave that way because of how he has been raised. If you don’t have these conversations and leave them to act like other boys at school because you’re scared to offend them, you’ll have problems

My son is almost 23 and from what I have seen, the way he respects everyone, his sister, me, the way he treats female friends, I think he is a good man. He doesn’t take offence when we or his female friends have these conversations because he acknowledges that there is a problem with a lot of men unfortunately. He doesn’t feel the need to say NAMALT as he knows he isn’t, he knows his dad isn’t etc. The good men can listen without taking offence because if they are truly good, you aren’t talking about them!

It’s because I’m not being “nice” and “kind”. Or subjugating myself on the altar of patriarchy. That’s literally it. It’s so pathetic.

Just take a look at every major story on the BBC News website today. What other conclusion would expect her to draw unless she was very blinkered?

You’re amazed easily. I think the deluded ones are the parents who think their precious boys could NEVA be abusive a-holes, and as a result don’t put the work in socialising them properly, then get a shock later down the road.
My son knows he is loved.. part of loving him is teaching him right from wrong, and to respect people, especially women and girls. Crack on and judge me for that if you please, people like you are part of the problem.

Ask her where it is coming from? Is it social media? I would say seeing the growth in misogyny among young men I can understand how jaded she feels.

Just tell her to stay off social media, and make sure she curates her circle VERY carefully with zero tolerance in her life for misogynist men and boys.

Point her to positive male role models and not that plenty of great men exist.

.. and i have a daughter too, and am doing this for her and everyone elses daughters too.

You can say to her that she's saving herself a lot of grief and isn't going to miss out on much, if she sticks to her mindset.

Exactly this. Almost every awful thing that's happened to me in my life has been because of a man.

If it helps to put a more positive spin on this, rather than using emotional and mental energy in hating men, the flip side is to expend it on supporting and uplifting women. When I find myself dwelling on the negativity and harms created by men and it feels depressing, I cheer myself up by thinking of all the excellent things women are doing to offset it and what I can do to contribute. I'm fortunate that I work with women, for women, so I get lots of opportunity. But even small connections and acts of support for other women are balm for the soul when it all feels a bit bleak.

Exactly! Keep the man bashing on those she mentions. No arguing needed.

Yep, this is so true. I have ‘watched’ myself waste many years pursuing relationships which were not worth pursuing (with men who cheated, or strung me along/used me, etc etc). I had an incredible determination not to give up on these relationships, I worked on ‘bettering’ myself (to become a more fun interesting gf, better cook etc) in the hope that men would find me more appealing. And all the while I knew they weren’t worth it and I constantly wished I had the same attitude/ ambition/ resilience in my professional life. My head always knew what was important but I wasn’t able to do much about it when I felt lonely or unloved, I just had to try and try to find and keep love.
The way I see it, it’s like a pyramid of needs where the need to be loved comes before the need for career progression, hobbies, etc. Until that need is met, some women are unable to focus on anything else.