What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

I always thought what a relief it would be if my DD were gay. I don’t think I’d worry about her as much.

A lot of men are actively evil. Many more are, at best, self-centred and see women primarily as a resource they make can use of, mostly for sex, free domestic labour and children. They don't love women, they love what women do for them. Don't gaslight your daughter. She has her wits about her.

Men on sex chats won't necessarily be a representative group...but I agree it's a lot more than we want to think.

How did you manage to have your daughters? Did you use an evil man? What about if you would have boys?

Men need to step up don’t they?

Yes not all men... But all men, including the good guys, need to call out bad male behaviour when they witness it. Most don’t.

Of course not but that’s exactly what I’m saying, yes I am a hypocrite because I haven’t overthrown the dominant power structures. I’m not saying I completely stand back, but I’ve not started a revolution either.

The point I was trying to make in this context is that individual men can and should be challenging things where they see them but it will take more than that to fundamentally change anything.

I think it's far healthier to start from a place of extreme cynicism as a young person than starry-eyed romanticism.

Her view now will certainly help to protect her in many situations. If her life experience means she softens it in the future, that'll be a nice surprise for her. (This has basically been my experience.)

Her peers who crave male approval above all else, try to box themselves into traditional roles without questioning bad male behaviour and dream of fairytale endings with perfect husbands - well, they have disappointment coming their way.

FWIW I don't think she's entirely right - I think this is more to do with the nature of power than the nature of masculinity. But her stance will hopefully be a better, more questioning starting point to think about power structures in society.

I agree with this. I became cynical later on about men but just wanted romance at 19, which I think is the case for a lot of women. It's better to start off cynical and focus on other things at 19 then have some great romance later on, which I truly hope does happen for her.

Agreed. As a 19 year old I was a starry eyed pick me who worshipped men.

I think starting from the position of OP’s daughter would have avoided a lot of heart attack and meant I only experienced healthy relationships.

Also it would have been a pleasant surprise when I came across non-misogynist / non-sexist men instead of the reverse when I became depressed at realising the sheer number of men who are sexist and simply hate women.

You say 'you're a smart cookie!' As has been said, I wish I had realised how vile the male race is at that age. Took me a few years longer!

I think this is fundamentally it. Men need to do the work. And most of them don’t realize that there is work to do, or don’t see why they should do it.

I get what you are saying. But the people on there you would NEVER think would be. So, you don't now which men would be on those sort of sites. Perhaps someone in your (not YOU specifically) life is and you just don't know about it. Why would you know about it? They hide things.

That's true, but when the OP's DD encounters women who are bullies, her perspective is likely to change. At age 19 she hasn't had much life experience yet.

If the DD is bullied by a woman, and it is an 'if' not the inevitability you seem to think (I'm 56 and never have been, other than by girls at school) why would it change her mind about men? Why would one female bully wipe out her knowledge of the male rapists, abusers and murderers that are causing an 'epidemic' of MVAWG? Why would encountering an unpleasant woman make her feel better about the cat calling, harassment, day to day sexism and poor attitudes from men she witnesses on a daily basis that have led her to her current view?

Why? Women don’t bully other women because they are women….

Well, I've encountered plenty of woman who are bullies throughout my life, and my perspective hasn't changed. Women can be nasty, but they're not even close to being as bad as men.

And their nastiness isn’t systemic.

Same here. It's been useful to start out with this insight. My mantra at 18 was "all men are bastards." I was dramatic, but not wrong. By contrast, I love women and am continually impressed by them. I do have a beautiful boy though, so that's a conundrum!

I mean… sometimes it can be…

say nothing- respect it. Men are vile.

The most concerning thing is she is spot on.
I held the belief that more men were depraved than not before the Epstein scandal, the release of the files has been horrifying. I firmly believe there's a miniscule percentage of good men, throw a bit of money and power around and look at the damage they do.

It’s called “Fuck the patriarchy” not “fuck the matriarchy”

Acknowledge her feelings. (I acknowledge your distress over this matter, etc. Maybe you can come over/let's go to coffee/lunch and you can tell me what these issues mean to you). You don't have to agree with her.

It's great that she expresses herself so openly to you. Keep those lines of communication available. Stay engaged and listen closely, be empathetic and try to help her examine why it is that she feels so strongly. What's behind her upset feelings? What does she fear?

At her age hormones can still be going mad. As her prefrontal cortex fully develops by the time she is around 25, she will perhaps have had the opportunity to meet some good young adults. Help her to be a friend to others.

Unfortunately, this is part of growing up as a young girl or woman. I was jaded by men and misogyny by my early teens. Luckily, I have some close male friends who are a constant reminder that there are good men out there.

I personally think it's wonderful that she is being engaged in world current events. You can encourage her to study history or psychology so she can form a more nuanced view of human nature. And she can learn about the history of women fighting for equal rights so she can have something to inspire her.