What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

Just ignore her.

I think she’s right.

No it’s not all men but it’s far far too many. It is systemic so very very few men will escape it.

Ive not dated in years and nothing I have heard about men has made me reconsider my stance.

I have found I have to avoid becoming too involved in very extreme news, because my mind is too empathic, I’ve found I become preoccupied & then unable to get anything normal done in my life. So I sympathise with your DD.
I did a tiny look into Epstein background & interestingly found there’s a brother, who seems to be fairly ‘normal’, ie. not done anything as vilely weird as the headliner. THUS proving not ALL men are evil.
I also need add, that factually speaking, all men have an X chromosome, so technically are half female. ( interestingly, in all Birds it’s the other way around!)

You're right to be saddened by this - I blame the internet for the increasing polarisation on both sides. I wouldn't start challenging her beliefs over the Epstein files though!

Completely agree. I also can't understand the need for some women to rattle off the 'NAMALT' as soon as someone posts about men's behaviour.

Why the urge to protect men?

I often think about this.
I mean we can't write off men because we all have fathers and many are mothers of son's etc
I know male privilege exists and societal expectations and norms whatever,
but at the same time can we as mums absolve ourselves of all responsibility?
Can we not do anything to influence our kids?
I think we should try and save our children. Boys and girls.

When I hear "not all men," I think of this song.

I'm so glad times have changed and young women are so much more astute now. When i think back to all the disgusting behaviour I experienced from men as I was growing up. Even the ones that seemed really nice always turned out to have some 'side' to them that wasn't good.

First experience of men noticing me was builders whistling when I walked home from school in my school uniform at 14/15.

My first boyfriend was absolutely lovely, family thought he was great - a few years later he groped me when he thought I was asleep and then years later he was regularly sleeping with prostitutes.

My next boyfriend was also lovely - till about 18 months in when he started to get controlling about what clothes I wore, then he got aggressive in a club and started shoving me around.

I went travelling in Europe and during that time I was flashed, asked for a blow job, had a man shower with the cubicle door open behind me in a mixed bathroom while i cleaned my teeth and had an old man put his arm round me on a train.

My 'lovely' quiet, unassuming, hard working, husband of 20+ years then turned out to have been lying and trying to cheat (with women and men) all through our marriage.

Honestly I can only applaud your dd because hopefully it means she avoids going through the things I have.

It’s internalised misogyny. The unwavering need to be liked and wanted by men. To be desired by them. To be needed by them. To be seen as “special” and not like all those other bitches and hags. To be accepted by the dominant and prevailing force in society. In the same way that bullies have lots of hangers on, because if the focus is on someone else and they can keep them sweet they’re less likely to get hurt. Or so they think.

It’s a damning indictment of the power of patriarchy. It makes women hate themselves. Because any woman who can come on to a thread focusing on the sex trafficking of children and parrot NAMALT hates us and themselves.

I'd be pleased that shes come to this realisation early, instead of having to go through years of shit to reach the same conclusion.

My 18 year old has expressed her disgust as have her friends.
She has a devoted father and brothers who really love her.
She is bright enough to know the difference.

I'm 60 and myself and friends are genuinely repulsed by Trump and his scum ilk.
Epstein was facilitated by scummy Maxwell too.

I would prefer my daughters have a really suspicious view of men, as I believe it won't do her any harm at all.

You really are that unaware! Thanks for providing a further example. So clear.

I'm pretty sure some of the people on this thread who are trying to say women are equally bad/worse and NAMALT are actually men.

I think this a normal part of developing her own sense of self, justice, politics or school of thought. Leave her she will level out or she won’t and maybe she’ll become an academic and writer on the the subject.

let her explore and sit with the emotions. Sex and gender politics matter a lot to some people and are part of how they navigate the world.

it’s fine.

There are some despicable men on this thread. I've reported a few of their comments that break the talk guidelines, but I have mixed feelings about this, as women need to actually see how much men hate women and just how open they are willing to be about it, when hiding behind a fake name.

I agree discussions like this are so interesting, and difficult for some. I’m thinking of the recent thread about the question of banning male nursery workers. Most would agree it would be difficult to enforce, but could calmly discuss the statistical reality that men present the greatest risk by far to women and children throughout their lives. Some were utterly appalled by the suggestion.

I’m interested in how some women are so blind to it all to be honest. Is it about having sons? A cruel female figure in their life? I don’t want women to hate all men, but I’m surprised if there are many women whose lives haven’t been marred by male sexual harassment, somewhere on its spectrum. I don’t know any woman who hasn’t had some harassment. Most girls begin to attract pervy looks and behaviour from age 11/12. It’s pernicious and revolting.

I really think that we need to address porn, prostitution, the whole gamut of treating women as a commodity for male consumption - before we will get anywhere in reversing the huge issues we have with male sexual violence in our world.

I don't think that was a joke, and I agree. This attitude will protect her.
And I say this as someone whose girlfriend tried to murder her a few years back.

Are you happy for other people to be oppressed by the dominant power structures that you are part of, while you stand back and benefit?

Because if not, you are already a hypocrite.

But I do think it’s important for her to understand that women are not a golden calf. We are not perfect. And patriarchy and cannot exist or continue with men alone it is also upheld by women.

women who assist, or turn a blind eye or uphold the belief systems or coerce other women into compliance. Who cape and a make excuse, act as shields for men’s behaviour. Who are happy to ignore as long as it’s not them.

It's okay, love, men are doing just fine without you debasing yourself trying to defend them. Take a breather.

I think I would counter her thoughts with the fact that the News/SM does not report on the good deeds of good people. All she is hearing about is the SMALL number of men who are predatory and corrupt. Billionaires and politicians represent a tiny/minuscule subsection of the category of ‘men’ and for every shit male there are dozens of good ones. Just as is the case for women, Muslims, refugees.

We need to be alert and learn to discern which ones are which. That is a life skill that we will become more confident in as we age. A society that helps is one that ensures that the law protects women who are victims, that ensures there is a responsive police presence on our streets, that protect women’s spaces, that encourages ‘good’ men and women to call out bad behaviour. One of the things that struck me about the Epstein stories is the way PARENTS (male and female) facilitated access to their children by these men - evil men cannot act in a vacuum. Society needs to change. A society populated by men and women.

I feel sad that my DH has to have meetings with women in glass offices, leaving doors open or including a 3rd person so that a) the female knows she is safe and b) he is not vulnerable to having his behaviour misconstrued. I feel sad that my adorable DS at nearly 18 will have to navigate a world in which young women like OP’s will ‘hate’ him purely by virtue of his sex. I feel sad that (gentle) men like my FiL are not seen to be the norm. I feel deeply sad that my DD is so fearful of men that she pretends to be one, because that seems safer.

The world is populated by men and women who are largely good and, whilst it is wise to be alert to those who may awful/dangerous/abusive and to stake protective steps, it would be tragic to live each day assuming every person you meet is dangerous.

I agree.

it’s not misogyny to state there is a real problem with men and comparing it to misandry (and suggesting double standards) really over simplifies and reduces the issue.

it’s very well known that there is a VAWG epidemic

You'd hope so, but don't underestimate the power of internalised misogyny. Women as a demographic are far too eager to throw each other under the bus and make excuses for men, in order to gain male approval.

Our lack of solidarity is one of the things that I think makes it very difficult for feminism to enact real change.

This is powerful. You should send it to your daughter OP!

I've enjoyed scrolling through this. My daughter is only 13 but a vehement feminist and has a lot to say about the teenage boys at her school. And to be fair, with few exceptions, they ARE awful and they do say and do horrible things. My husband and her grandfathers are lovely men so she has examples in her life of what it looks like when it's lovely, but her actual experience of her peers has just proven her point time and time again.

I don't tell her she's wrong about it - she's actually right. She has always said she's not getting married or having kids and of course that's fine and I will always support her. I think she might do something really interesting as an adult if she keeps up this level of energy about injustice.