What should I say to my 19 year old daughter who has already decided that she hates men?

[JMSA]

I don’t know, I guess it just saddens me that she holds this negative view of the world already. I received this text from her tonight:

I feel so enraged by the Epstein files. It is like documented proof men are evil. This is what men will do when they have power and think they will get away with it because that’s their nature. The poor woman and kids, it’s sick.

I’m fed up of saying ‘it’s not all men’.
She really hasn’t known many nice teenage boys. I daresay social media has heavily coloured her view too. I don’t want to dismiss her feelings but don’t want to encourage the notion that all men are evil!

Like I said: rape apologist.

You know than MN is a man hating site especially those who read AIBU. So of course you are going to get posters saying how amazing your daughter is to think this way.

I say that there is nothing to be proud of your daughter hating anyone and acting on it. Its almost impossible not to reflect your hatred onto your behaviour and to remain unbiased. She is likely to end up with a self fulfilling prophecy of men treating her badly because she will subconsciously treat them with an attitude from the start.

MORE men are caused of crimes. That doesn't mean the vast majority do. Most men are great people just like most women. They are just not perfect and different to us in many ways. Women can also be nasty, vindictive and bullies in their own ways.

My son us genuinely the kindest and respective soul around. He is well balanced and very well set up already being fully independent at 23. He would love a girlfriend. He however is petrified of approaching any because he knows that many think exactly like your daughter and will manage to put him down the second he says or does something that is perfectly innocent but will be turned to be the crime of the century. He is not the only one like that. Ironically, its the good ones, the ones who care about women's feelings who end up staying away as a result.

I have a daughter and would not be proud of her in anyway if that's was her belief. I'd be worried for her.

I hope my DD still maintains she's a lesbian when she's older primarily as I won't have to worry about her being at such high risk of being raped and abused by men.

But now you mention it, yes, my friends in the happiest couples do seem to be the lesbians. Now in our 50s, most of the hetro couples I know have split up, or are miserable but staying together for the kids - with a small number of exceptions, but they are the exceptions not the rule.

The lesbian couples I know on the other hand, seem mostly pretty content.

Isn’t it funny that in so many cases of men raping, abusing and killing women there always pops up some person to say they are amazed because the man in question always seemed so kind-hearted, generous etc.? I hate to break it to you but you have no idea what your sons and their lovely friends might be doing for the 99.9% of the time in which they are not in your presence. Because all these women and children are being harmed by something aren’t they?

Oh and so what if the birth rate is plummeting? Or are you one of those women who think the younger generations should suffer through shit just because you did? The world is not owed women’s reproductive labour.

Take your spite and bitterness elsewhere. I will not allow you to imply that my sons are rapists and/or apologists. I am so glad I do not have your outlook on life, what a way to live - blinded by suspicion, hatred, and fear. Poor you.

It's not all men.. but it's always men.
It's as well to remember that. Men as a subset of society are not covering themselves in glory at the moment. The world order is changing and they are fighting like tantrumming toddlers.

What are you going to do about it? Let me clarify just so it’s clear: you do not know that any of the men in your company are not already abusing women. None of us know that - that’s the point. It’s not spite and bitterness, it’s reality and factually correct. I’m sure all the women whose partners raped Pelicot for years also thought they were upstanding citizens.

I don’t debate with rape apologists, I only call them out.

Agree. That's why I find the posts here being like "it's just rich people" completely missing the point.

I'm sorry to say this but I think your daughter has more to worry about than my generation or yours (I'm old enough to be her grandmother).

The lads have access to what we would have considered extreme porn (and they like it! ) and to communication with groups of men reinforcing very harmful attitudes to young women. There are women's groups campaigning that other women should become "surrendered wives". Abortion rights are being removed in the western world, which is utterly shocking to see happen, and says everything about many men's fundamental attitude to controlling women and "the purpose" of women. There are entire, and growing, areas of the country with patriarchal control and completely different attitudes to women's rights. Some of those attitudes are very attractive to a subset of men from outside that culture.

The "rich guys can do what they like and get away with it" is reducing as people are realising what they've been up to since the days of "droigt de seigneur". But the rest is getting worse.

Your daughter has her head screwed on, don't disabuse her just try to give her enough self confidence to find herself a good partner.

Its not a leap of logic. Because women typically do allow for exceptions unless their experience had been that there have been none. They mean they hate male patterned behaviour and that their experience has been that more men demonstrate it than not.
So your challenge is not a clever 'gotcha'. You will merely have scored a point on semantics, and could maybe get your daughter to rephrase "I hate men" to "I hate the behaviour shown almost exclusively by men, and that while my dad and brother may not show it, I have already noticed that many men do. And have no way of knowing which of the men I will meet in the world will, and this makes me want to avoid men".
Would you count that as a win? Does that address the epidemic of MVAWG? Because that's the important issue here. Not a woman's language to voice her concerns about it. Sort the first and the second won't be necessary.

Agree. My abusers and rapists weren't rich. They were men who thought they could get away with it, and, unfortunately, they were right.

No I get it OP. When I was 19 I was enjoying dating and meeting loads of lovely young men and having the time of my life. I was so full of excitement about the future. I met my now DH and fell hopelessly in love.

I’ll be sad if my DD is so full of dislike of men at 19, given her wonderful dad and the fact she has a brother who adores her.

Sounds like your DD has her head screwed on. It’s best for young women to be wary of men and be happy with, and capable of, building an independent life without relying on a man financially, practically or emotionally.

Does your DD have a brother and you a son? As a mother of young men, I know (while understanding it and challenging men who are sexist etc) they sometimes feel frustrated that some young women assume the worst of all men. Or think men are less at risk than they are, when it’s their male friends who’ve been violently attacked on the street. Plus, some young men feel a huge pressure to succeed financially to be able to provide for a family, because our sexist society still expects them to be the ‘main breadwinner’.

If you have to say anything to your DD, suggest reminding her the media focuses on horrors and bad things because that’s what sells. So, the news is always the worst of life: wars, murders, rapes etc. In that sense it isn’t representative of the real world, which is full of kind, considerate people, both women and men. The news rarely reports on the daily occurrences of male paramedics, doctors, firefighters, lifeboat crew and police saving people’s lives (often at great risk to their own), men caring for their loved ones, or going out of their way to support people in their community, even though lots do.

I am as sure as I can be that my son is one of the good guys. His dad and I have worked very hard to make sure he is. But there is so much pressure on boys and men from malign influences that we can never be absolutely sure. There are plenty of examples of apparently good men turning out to be actively or passively shit. IMHO it’s the passive ones that are the bigger issue. The men who stay silent. Who don’t challenge misogyny. Who shore up the patriarchy, despite knowing that it damages them as much as it damages women. The men who model shit relationships with women to their sons-Mumsnet is full of those. The men who don’t think it’s anything to do with them.

I love the men in my life but you’ve go to admit this latest is depressing. Bill Gates. Didn’t Melinda show better judgment than any of the men involved in leaving him?

how could so many people have colluded for so long…

of course Fergie and Maxwell are in it up to their necks - is it that power corrupts, gives you a sense of entitlement..?

totally agree with this. My DD is 20 and her experience of 'men' in her world has left her very jaded about the male sex. It all started for her in senior school where she witnessed them get away with misogynistic behaviour from the age of 12. She first told me what she thought at around the age of 15 and her experience of having actual boyfriends has not changed her opinion one iota. Sad state of affairs.

It’s not all men
but it’s usually men

The world has gone backwards is an interesting question. I was flicking through a post on instagram the other day that was saying how the late 90s/early 00s were the best time. On the face of it yes but underneath clearly things were awful. Is it still like that underneath now? We don’t know but by things coming out from back then, however late and awful they are, perhaps the very fact they are coming out might mean we’re going forwards.

I can only go by the current behaviour my DDs are experiencing at school. I don’t hate men, I’m married to an amazing one but we live in a time where living women can only be believed when a dead man’s emails are read to back them up. Reading the relationship pages on here alone is enough for you to lose faith in men to be honest without the global scandal.

I think it’s vital for our girls to learn what a healthy relationship looks like and to accept nothing but those healthy behaviours from a man.

She’s right. You should be pleased she won’t be fooled by evil men.

She doesn’t need you bleating the “not all men all the time” mantra at her. This is not insightful wisdom.

We all know that it’s not every single man, and that rarely, women can be just as bad.

More importantly, she’s an adult and she’s allowed to have her own opinions without you trying to change them.

This should be your takeaway, rather than viewing her as simply jaded.

I am also happily single with a DD20 who feels the same as your DD. What I do see though, is her investing in her friendships, studies, travel and hobbies.

My DD12 is also voicing similar opinions regarding the attitudes of boys towards girls. She often comes home from school, animated about some comment that a boy/boys have made and articulately expresses how wrong they are.. and how she feels about it.

I sometimes find it a bit depressing, but I am also mindful of the fact that there has been a huge social shift, where more and more women are choosing to stay single. The generation of our DD's have seen this INCEL movement play out online, and all around them. They use language that I only learnt in my 40's. They have far higher expectations on how a relationship should look and what they will tolerate, which in itself is something us older women should encourage - and in some cases, learn from. It's never too late ladies!

Having said all that, I understand why you made the post. The evil towards women and children, perpetuated by men, is the basis of all of these files. It is a level of horror I wish I could shield my own DD from, in a way. But ultimately, harm and violence towards girls and women is so commonplace, that better they know, and not be under any illusions that it is rare.

You asked whether everyone on here thinks their son is an exception. Well, if they've raised them to be they probably do.

Whilst perhaps lacking in an understanding of some of the nuances, I suspect she's in a far better position than the majority of young women who are far too trusting of men and put themselves through all sorts of difficulties as a result.