Are all fathers creepy?

[Alex122022]

My experience in a different thread (on swimming pool changing room etiquette) has been quite interesting: there seems to be a widely shared opinion that all men are creeps and there are never any innocent explanations for their behaviour.

While I completely agree that a father in a women's changing room - especially when there are older girls - is inappropriate, I can easily see how this could happen without any ulterior motive. Be it simply ignorance or lack of judgement.

I experienced the same on playgrounds: playing hide & seek with my daughter? Mothers approach my DW and tell her that "a perv" is watching the children. Playing with DD - well meaning mothers asking her whether she is ok or needs help.

AIBU to think this is a bit excessive?

"Men are a threat. Even the nice ones."

So are women. Essentially so are all women. Men are more likely, but that doesn't exclude women.

I don't think this is really conductive to any solution.

It's more likely that a man who didn't appear to be a 'father' would stand out as more likely to be pervy if they're in an area with plenty of free ranging kids.

But equally a pervert could hide behind the fact they've got a child with them to gain access to situations where they could cause harm.

Many men act pervy fairly openly to adult women. And by extension women are more wary of them. Not necessarily that they're actually paedos. But why take the risk? Being vigilant is better than the alternative. where you could have your guard down and a risk could be hightened.

I guess you don't understand as you've probably not experienced or witnessed the opposite sex trying to dominate you or treat you as a subordinate as a matter of course.

By the time he was using the men’s alone he was 7/8. He was perfectly capable of going to the toilet alone. The only possible problem was men. There will be additional needs if a child can’t toilet alone by 7/8 and then there are other options.

It sounds like you’re actually trying to justify men in women’s spaces which is creepy as fuck.

I can tell you that my dad and brother would absolutely never ever be caught dead in a woman's changing room, nor do they enjoy being at the playground, in fact they'd rather be anywhere else. Normal non-creepy men don't go into female changing rooms and don't watch any girls that aren't their own.

MRA alert I think. 🚨

The post you quoted explained extremely clearly that male presence in predominantly female spaces or, God forbid, what should be female spaces, makes many women feel uncomfortable or on guard:

"men ... are bigger, stronger, more emboldened by online toxic influence women are on high alert and will stick together, alert each other, question any male and their behaviour in the area."

It's being there.

You being there and being male is enough to make many women feel on guard.

I know that's not fair on you as a no doubt very nice dad.

But it wasn't fair on me when I was catcalled as a child, groped as a teenager, sexually assaulted as a young women etc etc by a number of men who no doubt are now very nice dads.

A woman in a male changing room is threat?

How?

There's another thread where many posters explain that a father cannot possibly be trusted with a young child because they're male, and only a mother can take care of a young baby

and I have seen so many women rudely behaving towards a dad at playgroup or baby clinic because it was a MALE - and I don't mean a breastfeeding group, I mean a normal baby clinic to check their weight, or a baby group for babies and toddlers.

So I think a lot of women genuinely convinced themselves that all fathers are creepy. How did they have sex with one to become pregnant in the first place is anyone's guess

I think part of the problem, especially with regard to the thread the OP has quoted, is that many of society's spaces aren't set up for men to be engaged with the care of their children. For e.g. a man taking his daughter swimming - it's equally horrible for him to be in the women's changing room with her or for her to be in the men's changing room with a load of naked men. (FWIW I was the child in this situation, decades ago, and found it genuinely traumatic at 5 years of age - and especially at that height - to be in a room full of men changing. My dad hadn't considered this before taking me, was absolutely mortified, and from then on it was my mum's job. Which is one solution I suppose.)
DH has encountered similar when he's been out with the DC and discovered that the only baby change table is in the women's toilet.
Similarly, he's white and I and our DC are assorted shades of brown. And he's had uncomfortable experiences with well-meaning adults "checking in" with the DC while he's been playing with them. Worse if he's trying to wrestle DD into her car seat and she doesn't want to go and is screaming blue murder. People's intentions are good but it's also really shit for him and reinforces the message that only mums should take their kids out.
Obviously that doesn't excuse or justify genuinely creepy men, of which there are far too many. But I think it's part of the problem that the spaces of society haven't caught up with the social norm of men doing childcare.

How is it an easy mistake to make though???

If they think small girl isn’t allowed in the men’s… then why on earth would they think a grown man be permitted in the women’s??

Just silly, and I don’t know why any man would even put himself in a position to be seen as a pervert.

BlackCrowKing

or I just stand in the playground with dads who aren’t creeping, perving or checking people out, they’re having conversations with other parents, helping their kids on swings and slides the way we do. This thread is very ott

No, they’re not, but some are idiots and/or have no self-awareness - or self-preservation instincts. If My DH saw a child in distress at a playground he wouldn’t intervene himself - whereas I would - but would feel he should enlist the help of a female. Similarly, even if he was taking our DD swimming, he would not go into a women’s changing room - he would likely take her to unisex/family changing areas and use a cubicle, or take her into the loos. Because he is petrified of being seen as creepy and/or inadvertently causing distress.

It’s really sad, because on one occasion a child at our own DC’s party was choking and it was me that had to be called in to do first aid and save his life… because DH and other dad’s present felt too afraid to step in because of the culture of ‘all men are pervs’ and the fact that ‘not my nigel’ derision is often thrown in the faces of women defending their partners.

@frozendaisywhat a refreshing take - well said. Think the weaponised incompetence or male fragility /outrage at being held accountable for anything parenting related, (for lack of a better description) has been so ingrained for centuries that we women continue to think it’s a problem we need to fix. So much further to go in giving the problem back to men. I suppose it’s their refusal to give a shit that explains why women are the only ones that care enough to sort it out.

I can see both sides. Today there was a boy in the women’s changing room- pre pubescent ( I’d say 7- 9 yo), his mum was there too but not tending to him. He stared at me hard as I entered the changing cabin, naked above the waist. Frankly it was uncomfortable. But I understand his mum would not have wanted to send him to the men’s changing room.
My Dad, an old fashioned and rather prudish guy, once told me women were lucky because their motives around kids were not open to being misconstrued. He found young kids cute and liked looking and smiling at them ( more and more as he got older ) but knew he had to be careful.

I raised daughters. They’re a bit beyond running around playing hide and seek now, but I would often take them out to parks and playgrounds and lots of other places on my own, particularly after divorce. Including taking them swimming.

I don’t think I ever had so much as a raised eyebrow from the Mums looking after their kids, so you must have been unlucky, OP. Or live in a very suspicious neighbourhood.

Too many people on this thread are being sidetracked by the changing room example, which was obviously inappropriate behaviour (although I would argue it could have been clueless rather than pervy) The examples of women approaching kids to ask them if their own fathers are harming them are absolutely wild. We can't have it both ways! You can't complain that fathers don't do enough, and then accuse them of being paedophiles when they are hands on.

How were they rude at a clinic or playgroup? Being rude to men seems to be women not smiling and entertaining them in a lot of cases. Women aren’t here to be kind to random men, even ones at playgroup. I remember chatting to a father at playgroup, about our kids, general chit chat. He made pervy comments and asked me out next time we were there. Women are rightly wary of men.

“What would you have done if your son had an accident in the men's toilet?”
what kind of accident? Are you even a parent? You allow your opposite sex child into such areas AFTER they know how to dress undress themselves and know to come to you at the door if they need help (assuming you mean urine/stool accident) you take close note of the time and are ready to enter if more than a few seconds, and listen for crying should they slip. You know the environment (50 boys all changing after swim lesson, vs airport washroom) some of this is simply being alert to fucken creepy men. Shit women learn to watch out for from age zero.

Men are a threat. Even the nice ones. It doesn’t seem to take much for them to prove it, either.

by that reasoning, looking at the number of mums convicted for letting their kids to die to go party, or who just killed their baby at birth, all new mums are a threat? Do we have to be a bit thick not to recognise that new mums are a problem?

I know you won't get the irony, but between that and women who are convinced a father can't be left with his own child, I despair.

Family or Group changing room.

If only they existed ..... 🙄

All fathers are not creepy. Men who enter women's changing rooms are likely to be creepy and/or overly entitled boundary pushers however. My ex husband managed to take his daughter out and about including swimming without ever entering a women's toilet or changing room and fully understood why he shouldn't. HTH.

DH doesn't "enjoy" being at the playground either. Most adults don't. Theyre designed for children. But most loving parents will tolerate them so that their kids can have a run around and play on the equipment. Simply being in a playground doesnt make a man a creep.

I wonder if OP is attracting suspicion because of his manner or attitude.
Being wary of men, as I am, is perfectly compatible with being polite to them and not making them feel unnecessarily uncomfortable.

Actually, I do understand the reason why women are more wary. It's interesting that everyone seems to assume I don't. But I look for a way to navigate through fatherhood without having to constantly worry about being accused of bad motives.

The changing room example is obviously quite extreme - but I've noticed a general attitude that was incredibly hostile and I would like to understand.

Do women accidentally find themselves in the men's changing rooms because they have their son with them, and do they continue to stay there once more men and boys start changing in there. No , I didn't think so.