Mixed sex changing rooms?

[Whatschanged]

Has something changed in society around changing/fitting rooms in shops or have I just had two unusual incidents? Or am I being ridiculous?!

A couple of weeks ago I was in the adult men’s section of Next with my 13 year old son, he needed to try on some jeans, a very tall but slim lad, so definitely doesn’t fit in the children’s section anymore. Men’s is upstairs with the homeware, women’s and kids downstairs, both floors have changing rooms. He went in to try them on and I waited completely outside by the lifts. While I was waiting an adult woman walked in the changing rooms to try something on, I was quite surprised, and gave her an odd look (very British of me, sorry) but she blanked me. I thought, well it’s not the end of the world but I’d be a bit more shocked at a grown man going in the changing room downstairs next to the women's clothes when my 13 year old daughter was in their alone (I don't have daughters though).

This weekend I was in M&S, women’s and children’s clothing downstairs, and there is a fitting room, women’s underwear and men’s clothing and cafe upstairs, there is a fitting room by the men’s clothes and a fitting room my the women’s underwear. I went in the fitting rooms by the women’s underwear to try some bras on, and there was a lady loitering around the cubicles, when I got in I heard what I presume was a little boys voice, perhaps about 6 years old and a grown mans voice (could have been an older teenager or a fully grown man, I never saw them, but a broken, older mans voice). The ‘man’ was helping the ‘boy’ with the clothes and the woman was outside the cubicle asking how it was going etc. I was really surprised, why wasn’t the grown man with the boy in the men’s changing room? Or why wasn’t the woman (presume mum) in there with him?! I was there with my boobs out, what if I wanted a fitting? M&S has lockable doors but Next it’s just curtains.

So I just thought perhaps something has changed and now people just wonder in whatever fitting room they fancy, or is this a bit weird?

YANBU – men should go in men’s, women in women’s, children that require assistance should go in whatever changing room matches the adult.

YABU – stop being so precious, you’re normally in individual locked cubicles anyway so what on earth does it matter!

79% agree with the OP.

The vast majority of women want single sex spaces. The poster is deluded to think otherwise.

• Primark: Introduced gender-neutral changing rooms in most stores
• Marks & Spencer (M&S): Has moved to unisex fitting rooms in many locations, including Braehead and Ayr, with staff exercising discretion. Most stores no longer have single-sex signage.
• H&M: Has made all changing rooms unisex, using curtains for privacy.
• Topshop/Topman: Combined stores often have shared changing rooms, as the brands are under the same ownership and typically offer mixed-sex facilities.

Avoid these shops.

I don’t know anyone, luckily, who prefers and would choose mixed sex spaces over single sex spaces when in a state of undress, if they had a choice. Locked cubicles or not.

They also simultaneously manage to go through life realising that males go into the same shops and other places too, they like men, and have good men in their lives.

Wild I know.

“A couple of weeks ago I was in the adult men’s section of Next with my 13 year old son, he needed to try on some jeans, a very tall but slim lad, so definitely doesn’t fit in the children’s section anymore. Men’s is upstairs with the homeware, women’s and kids downstairs, both floors have changing rooms. He went in to try them on and I waited completely outside by the lifts. While I was waiting an adult woman walked in the changing rooms to try something on”

The one in bold. That went in the same changing rooms as her 13 year old son, the ones on the men’s section floor. The woman that she gave the odd look to and was ignored.

Hence why I used gender.

You are more likely to experience sexual and emotional assault in your own home than you are in a chain store changing room.

You see it all day, every day, on here. I’ve yet to see a thread where a poster has been assaulted by a random trans woman.

It’s usually by partners, parents, step parents, siblings, grandparents, cousins etc and that’s without talking about teachers, social workers, nursing staff, scout leaders, music teachers, bosses, vicars, priests and “pillars of the community” who have suddenly all become “feminists” to deflect it all onto 0.1% of the population.

It’s disgraceful and dangerous as all this anti trans people rhetoric is making everywhere more dangerous for women and abusers are loving it.

Did you miss my point was about women only single sex spaces?

That the women objecting were objecting to men in what should be women only single sex space?

If you and any male decide to use a clearly marked mixed sex area you (if you are female) decide to accept any additional risk which attached. You as an adult are free to make that choice.

No one has said that women are more at risk from men who identify as trans than anyone else, you're making things up.

If these men had stayed out of spaces where they had no legal right to be in the first place then there would be less risk to women in those spaces now. That's on the men. It's victim blaming to blame this on women.

There is no anti trans rhetoric, it's pro- women rhetoric.

Oh dear, I should have realised this would descend into a vitriolic trans debate!

This will sound contradictory and spark a lot of 'what about' but if someone looks, presents and dresses in a female way, I'm happy for them to use (what were once) female only changing areas, if you look and present male, even if you're wearing a dress, even if you are trying on clothes from the women's section, I think you should use the male changing area.

It's traditional 'normal' for want of a better word, men, using women's changing rooms I don't like, or mixed sex/gender ones I don't like, I certainly would have dreaded this as a young girl/woman. I remember as a young teen going in changing rooms with a gaggle of friends, in an out of our cubicles showing each other how we looked, imagine that with a 6ft 50 year old bloke milling about in the common area?! I know the vast majority of men are not predatory sexual assaulters but it would still be weird and uncomfortable.

I am a bit of a prude as my mother used to say, and don't like it when women get totally naked in leisure centre changing areas either, but I rarely frequent them these days. When I was a child the 2 I went to regularly were segregated clearly in to men's and women's. I am early 40's now.

Debate away but try and be kind everyone.

It’s anti trans rhetoric. Women in the world have far more to worry about than 0.1% of the population and it’s dangerous to suggest otherwise.

just to add, MEN are the problem here, it has nothing to do with the way that they identify.

Men commit the vast majority of violent crime and their gender identity doesn't alter that.

The vast majority of women want private and individual cubicles - and would boycott shops not offering them.

I don't go shopping that often, but every single time I have been around MALE changing rooms - waiting for my sons, or even my DH, there were women walking in and out, and they were not member of staff 😂

When male member of staff have to go in the so-called single sex space, it's all a bit ridiculous anyway.

What makes you think that the men who idenitfy as trans are less of a risk than other men because they are not ?

Proper design would need more staff for proper cleaning

The removal of the floor gap means that staff are cleaning multiple small rooms with doored openings containing an opened/unU-bended drain rather than one large floor with small pillars and central drain points.

Someone said 'where have I been' - I've been on Vinted! Sticking to brands I know and love, but I've had a nightmare with bras over the last 10 years so really wanted to try some on there an then, and my 5ft 9 13 year old has reached an awkward size where he needs to try stuff on in the men's section, and not just order stuff in his age group.

Never mind. If you think 0.1% of the population are the problem then you’ve gone, imo, down the rabbit hole that predators are delighted exists. It’s beyond belief.

Trans women have the same offending rates as men (Dhejne et al. study). Probably because they are men. They don’t suddenly become a different entity because they feel differently about themselves and prefer presenting in dress stereotypically associated with the opposite sex.

It’s not even about being attacked, it’s about privacy and dignity. I don’t think any of the males in my life would harm anyone (as sure as one can be on that), still don’t want to get changed near any of them other than my partner if I could help it.

Even if I didn’t mind it’s not difficult to understand that other women may not feel the same, and that’s ok. You can’t give away consent on behalf of others.

I don’t know why you mention 2010 - men using women’s spaces (even if they put a dress on) has never been ok.

My daughter (14) was trying on bras in M&S a few months ago. We were in the fitting rooms in the lingerie section. It was curtains and not locked doors in this particular store. I was on the other side of the curtain in case my daughter needed any help, and next thing I know, this woman walked in with a man following her! He walked right into the changing room and was loitering on the other side of the curtain!!!

Why he couldn’t wait outside of the changing rooms I really don’t know. It made me feel very uncomfortable and I did not feel like I could move the curtain to ask my daughter anything, nor could she show me her bra so I could check how it fitted.

My husband and grown up sons would never go into women’s changing rooms, let alone in the underwear section, they would be mortified. This bloke seemed to be doing it on purpose. When we left, I turned and said ‘what the hell do you think you’re doing in here?!’ he didn’t say anything back.

I complained in writing to M&S but they weren’t interested and could not see my point of view at all.

You quoted me saying “I sometimes take mine in with me, and vice versa” and then blathered about assurances and consent. Irrelevant in the context of mixed sex changing rooms.

I was responding to that.

Is there a Godwin’s Law equivalent to “if you are female” on threads discussing single/mixed sex spaces? There should be. Yes I am.

No you are totally (and probably deliberately) misunderstanding.

0.1 % are not the problem.

MEN are the problem as a sex class in terms of risk, the 0.1% who claim not to be men still are men and offend at the same rate as other men.

Safeguarding works to reduce risk, that's why all men were excluded on the basis of their SEX. Men having a gender identity doesn't alter the risk.

The proportion of trans identifying men in prison who are sex offenders rather proves the point.

I think you've replied to the wrong person, I totally agree with you.

That's exactly the sort of thing I think is wrong, that's what I was thinking about, and the purpose of my post, this is not ok. Why on earth was he there?! Why would he want to be there. I can't believe M&S didn't care. Sorry you had that experience.

No, I was replying to you in solidarity. Didn’t want to encourage any more crap gifs from the gender ideology captured.

Are you new to this conversation?

It is an irrefutable and very well know fact that men are still men even if they like to think they are women. The power of wishful thinking is not transformative in reality.

That fact has not only been established since the dawn of time, but is also thoroughly backed in law. Therefore stating this fact is not harassment or contemptible.