To pull DS from his school

[FoxyDash]

I have boy girl twins aged 14.

DS has no diagnosis but he is really struggling behaviour wise at school.

He is in trouble pretty much every day and has had multiple isolations this term.

It feels like everything is punishment and nothing is support.

DD does not have any lessons with him but she constantly hears people telling her that her brother [name redacted] has done this or that.

She comes home upset and embarrassed even though she has done nothing wrong.

I am starting to worry it is affecting her education and confidence.

School just say they are following policy and his behaviour is unacceptable.

There seems to be no plan beyond sanctions and phone calls home.

I feel completely stuck and let down by them.

Would it be advisable to move him to another school or could that make things worse.

What is happening at home when you get a call from school to say he’s walked out of a lesson or ripped up a book? What do you say to him? Does he get his phone removed or his Xbox? Does he have to miss going out either his mates?

I have taught for many years. Some kids who misbehave do have underlying issues but some just can’t be bothered either the work. I was an angel at school in some lessons but was a PITA in others. You need to get to the root cause of this or else nothing will ever change.

Completely agree. Educational Psychologist can be organised through school, if not, go private. Organise a meeting with the school to discuss what they think they can do, ask for help. Its their job, and even though schools have limited resources for SEN etc there is help available - but you have to be very proactive to get it.

Help your boy, dont let it escalate.

I mean, I know you don’t think SEN but this is exactly how my teen with ASD presents when he’s dysregulated and struggling with school. You’ve basically written a checklist of what he does. When he’s managing school, he’s much more like the real him which is kind, funny and generally - not terribly autistic looking - so he would look like a badly behaviour child. But everything stems from his autism and needs handling completely differently.

Surely you need to speak to the school and have multiple meetings with this school, teachers, head, support staff etc, plus find an alternative, plus see the GP if he’s struggling and you expect a medical reason). Just making a knee jerk decision won’t help at all will it and will just cause serious disruption?

Ignore your daughters ‘embarrassment’, she will be fine - it’s really no reflection on her; I get the impression you are v worried about this aspect yet for him this entire thing is life changing perhaps.. speak to the school and ask what’s going on and what support can they give, meanwhile what are you doing at home to help improve everything???

Have you checked in with him to see if anything’s happened with him? Is he safe online? Rather than just jump to an ASD diagnosis, I’d do more digging first.

What are you doing to address deal with his behaviour? If you dont see any signs if neurodivergents then its a behaviour issue and its time to step up and manage his behaviour.

The school won't provide support for a behaviour issue as they are not his parent. Most of what you describe is not low level. Its constant poor behaviour and him disrupting other pupils continuously. I work in a secondary school and can assure you his behaviour is having a serious knock on effect on other pupils. Changing his school will not help his behaviour although it may make school a more pleasant experience for your dd as she wont have to hear constant complaints about her sibling.

@FoxyDash

1. Is his father in his life?
2. Does he have any positive male influences/role models in his life?
3. Does he have friends?
4. What is he like academically? Is he bright, or can he struggle with work?
5. What was he like in primary school?
6. Does he have any hobbies?

You need to get to the root cause of what is making him behave this way. Kids don’t just act out and be violent for no reason. Because, it’s obvious he’s dealing with something internally and doesn’t care about punishments and consequences.

Do you talk to him? Can you get him alone, in a safe space to try and open up to you?

Schools do talk to one another so which ever school you move him to they'll find out that he's having no discipline at home

That’s a rude and badly behaved child. Those aren’t low level, they are acts of defiance.

I was a secondary school teacher and kids like your son were a nightmare when trying to teach 30 other kids.

I think you need a reality check.

I understand it’s hard for your dd to hear but that’s your ds’ problem. If he wasn’t behaving in this manner then she wouldn’t be bothered with it. Remind her to just walk away and not react to people telling her.

You need to get to the bottom of his behaviour. A lot of the stuff you mentioned isn’t low level. He is being a big disruption in the classroom, throwing things, ripping up books and storming out of lessons requires the teacher to intervene and is then disrupting everyone else’s learning. The school are coming down hard on him because he has shown that his behaviour can become worse than just chatting in class and not listening.

When did his behaviour start? You mention he’s like this at home, has anything changed? You can’t compare him to your DD’s because they are not the same.

Personally I would be arranging a meeting with the school to decide what next. I don’t want to label his behaviour but maybe an assessment with an educational psychologist would be beneficial.
Taking him out of school and moving may not be the answer. His poor behaviour is communication for something right now so you need to focus on this. Moving him may make the behaviour worse.

It isn't my parenting, I have an older DD and she isn't like this nor is his twin.

I disagree.

The behaviour you're calling "low level" is actually high level. All of the examples you gave would require SLT intervention. He can't just do what he wants. And you undermining the school by saying the punishments are OTT is contributing to the problem.

You're moaning that they are using punishments and not support, what support are you giving him? You're more concerned about his sibling being embarrassed and you want to pull him out of the school for her sake. Nothing at all about what you plan to do to help him.

Take some responsibility and help your son by working with the school and not against them.

You need a plan for your son. What does he want to do when he leaves school? He needs a goal. Likelihood at this moment in time he will need college or an apprenticeship for when he finishes Year 11. Get him work experience in that field if possible. Giving him goals and a focus, although this is a long term one, can help massively.

Kindly, your daughter and yourself need to suck it up. The focus here needs to be on your son and helping him. Not on your embarrassment.

Have school tried turning it on its head? So putting him on report for praise only comments? Has your son got one person he can go and see when he's feeling like this? You need to push and not just accept what school are offering.

Also, where is dad in all of this? I mean this kindly, but a mixture of hormones and life events can really hit home during the teen years and they won't understand why. If SEN was being masked, hormones can really increase behaviours. I would advise therapy, a safe place for him to talk and maybe work through his feelings of frustration and rebelling to being asked to do things.

Changing schools- it could help. However chances that as your son has a pattern of not following basic instructions (staying in class, getting changed, not throwing), that moving schools and having a whole new setting of rules, teachers no relationships with friends or staff, and the overwhelm of starting somewhere new- this is going to overwhelm him. He might be able to contain himself to begin with, however, again, no actual support would be in place to help your son make good choices and not return to his normal patterns of bad choices.

If I was you I would start trying to make conversations about school positive. Is there one subject he likes, so you can email the teacher and get positive feedback? If all he hears is negative that those are the labels he will fulfill.

Absolutely this. There would be a huge wait if you ask school to refer. If you can afford to, pay private. Get to the bottom of what if anything is underlying this for him.

How did he do academically in primary eg SATs etc

does he have friends and what are they like?

does he have hobbies ?

Maybe he’s just an angry teenager who is pushing the boundaries. That could be the something

I think that your idea of "low level" is out of kilter with reality. If you are telling him that this level of misbehaviour is not serious then you are setting him up for terrible trouble.

He will likely be excluded soon and sent to a pupil referral unit or special school.

I don't think it would be a good idea to take him out of school unless you have an alterative plan for him.

Once he's out of school, all his friends will still be in school and he will be very socially isolated.

Do you think he is physically capable of behaving, or is there some reason why he cannot control his behaviour?

I had to take my DS out of school because he had severe anxiety. It hasn't been easy or fun, so I wouldn't look at that as the easy route. It's very isolating once there are no teachers or friends any more.

Teenagers are not angry for no reason.
Maybe OP’s unusual focus on DD in this instance is a clue to the dynamics?
Even if the OP doesn’t think she plays favorites maybe DS experiences life differently.

At the least i would say this is classic PDA?

Many ASD and ADHD kids aren’t picked up and identified until secondary school because they mask well and cope with the ways school is structured in junior school. When hormones, larger class sizes/year groups, more rigid discipline systems and the increasing importance of schoolwork (GCSE) come into play to the ability to cope decreases and behaviour deteriorates.

i would say that there is a reason you see a professional clinical specialist for diagnosis rather than school staff who manage 30-35 children in rolling classroom settings. it sounds as both you and the school are letting him down by refusing to be open to the notion that he is ND - thereby denying him the support, counselling and medication he could access.

And fyi it is not in the schools interests to think he needs diagnosis - they get nothing out of it but additional admin and a higher duty of care. This costs money and additional staff hours. YOU have to insist upon an assessment.

All teenagers can have mood swings, but to be this disruptive and violent in school isn’t just being an “angry teenager”. It’s obvious this lad is dealing with something mentally, struggles at school and doesn’t know how to express himself.

So you say that you feel stuck and let down by the school and there is no support.
But what are you doing yourself? And his dad?

Those are not low level! Low level is chatting over the teacher, forgetting stationary, taking a while to settle down etc. your son is very disruptive to his classes and teachers. What are you doing at home in response to this? Removing phones? Computer time? Etc I’m not sure you can say it’s not your parenting because your other children are fine. That’s not how it works.

The fact that you see these things as low level bad behaviour speak volumes!

What would you do if you pulled him out of that school, OP?

I think I understand why you're focused on what this is doing to DD. She's bothered by what's going on, DS isn't. It doesn't seem like anything you do will change things for DS. But pulling him out could make DD's education much better. I'm not sure it's right, though, to pull a child out of school to benefit their sibling. I think it's something you should do only if it's better for the child you're pulling out. And to come to a conclusion about that, you need a plan for what you'd do once you pull him out.

You say the school just punish and don't provide any support. What support would make a difference? I do think you underplay how bad his behaviour is, to be honest. Refusing to change for PE is seriously disruptive to the class. Teachers can't spend time trying to convince kids they need to get on with the basics that they're perfectly capable of doing without disrupting the education of 29 other kids. It's not low level. What do you expect a teacher to do in those circumstances? Instant isolation might seem a bit strong to you, but it's probably a lot fairer on the other kids in the class.

Have you talked to the school about him, told them you're worried about him and about the impact on your DD? They may have some suggestions about intervention programs (I wouldn't hold out much hope, though. that stuff seems to have died out in the last 30 years).

If you moved school, is there one he'd maybe fit into better? Do you know of any that would be "supportive" rather than draconian with him? Could you find a different way to educate him? Would he do better with a less academic approach? Could you see if there are any alternative institutions he could attend? I would be worried, if you pulled him out, that he'd get even more lost and isolated. I think it's important you find a way to improve things.

'It can't be my parenting - both his sisters are fine'.

I'd relook at this logic with a view to parenting the actual child, not just a facsimile of his sisters. Is there a Dad at home?

This is such a nuanced and emotionally intelligent respons @FoxyDash, please read it carefully. Something is amiss when you are focussing on your DDs concerns here. It's like tending to a child with a mild sore throat while the other one is suffocating with the flu. Please focus on DS first and tell DD that she is not responsible for her brother's behaviour and to repeat this to anyone who says anything.

I would call Cahms asap. Go private if you can. Your son is screaming out for help loudly and clearly in the way he can- by acting out. Please help him.

Does your son like isolation? My DS found the secondary school too big and too noisy so being put in isolation was a relief. This only came to light after I removed him.

I got a telephone consultation with the doctor, explained that his behaviour was out of control at school, that it was affecting our home life. I said I believed he was anxious, that I suspected he was ND (finally diagnosed at 20 by the way) but school disagreed. My DS was signed off for 4 weeks.

He calmed down as soon as the threat of school was removed. You could see the change in he demeanour immediately. He still did school work while he was off, but it became apparent he was way, way out of his depth and not understanding most of it.

During his time off we had some good one-to-one conversations as he could see I was trying to help.

He did go back in after his doctors note expired, but I removed him permanently about a month later.

I am not saying you need to remove your DS, but something is driving the behaviour. The behaviour is unacceptable, of course, but you need to get to the bottom of it.