To pull DS from his school

[FoxyDash]

I have boy girl twins aged 14.

DS has no diagnosis but he is really struggling behaviour wise at school.

He is in trouble pretty much every day and has had multiple isolations this term.

It feels like everything is punishment and nothing is support.

DD does not have any lessons with him but she constantly hears people telling her that her brother [name redacted] has done this or that.

She comes home upset and embarrassed even though she has done nothing wrong.

I am starting to worry it is affecting her education and confidence.

School just say they are following policy and his behaviour is unacceptable.

There seems to be no plan beyond sanctions and phone calls home.

I feel completely stuck and let down by them.

Would it be advisable to move him to another school or could that make things worse.

If this is a fairly recent change in his behaviour then something has happened or is happening to him.

It could be anything, bullying, something online that has upset him. You don't suddenly start acting up for no reason at 14.

You mentioned that he has no lessons with his sister, is this due to them being in different sets? Have they taken their GCSE choices yet?

I agree and the same is true with siblings. My dds are very different and it’s great they are in different schools. Dd2 has often been unfavourably compared with dd1 in the past and it’s really unhelpful. It’s better none of her teachers have ever met dd1. So from that point of view moving DS would help them both, but change may negatively affect DS further. So I’d probably ask Dd if she wants to move which probably she will say no to and so you’re stuck with it.

He needs assessing for adhd op. It’s really common in boys that things suddenly get much worse when they hit puberty. The school won’t want him diagnosed as it puts more responsibility onto them.

To be honest, persistent behaviour like that, I'd crack down on him too as a teacher for not getting changed.
Have there been incentives to behave before?
Do you impose consequences at home for behaviour?
Do you mainly use incentives (i.e. no real consequences)?
Is something making him unhappy? (i.e. have you talked to him about WHY he acts out persistently)
Changing schools probably will make no difference - better to support school and DS to stop the behaviour. It sounds pretty standard for pissed off 14 year olds and is not something that cannot be fixed.

He shouldn't need an incentive to behave. At his age he knows actions have consequences. I know it's old fashioned thinking but he needs punishments at home too not you blaming the school.
If you can't control his behaviour why are you expecting them to just put up with it.

What is you son’s own explanation for his behaviour? How does he feel about school? Is he constantly being compared to his twin? Until you know more about what is underlying the issues, you can’t be sure whether a school move will work or not.
Have you spoken to school?

You haven’t mentioned about a meeting with the school? Moving schools isn’t the answer as the problem will just follow him. You need to sit down with the senco and his head of year.

"You don't suddenly start acting out at 14" -- I'd agree to a large degree, but also remind you that 14 is prime hormonal territory, that lovely "testosterone surge" in boys and god alone knows what happens in girls.
Have a well adjusted "past her teens now" DD here, and can attest that the otherwise lovely, wise, funny and kind DD sometimes just had a "teen tantrum" or grew an attitude in like milliseconds over stuff. They are teenagers and to a degree slaves to puberty and hormones as well as all the other shit life throws at them.

It doesn’t sound like endless punishment and ‘isolations’ is working and may actually be making the situation worse.
I would look to move him to a more supportive environment both for his sake and so your daughter can focus on herself and her own studies.

You are utterly failing him @FoxyDash by being so adamant the is not Nd.

You are not a professional

Oh Op you are dealing with the classic mumsnet response

Behaviour is communication, your son may have undiagnosed SEN

no child 'wants' to be in trouble all the time - he is clearly struggling to cope.

step away from the nasty judgemental comments here and look for proper professional insight into your son.

You say he wasn't like this in primary school - so I would say it is something about this new school he can't cope with. It's not unusual for children with undiagnosed need to find primary, with its smaller classes and intensive suport much easier.
Secondary school is large classes, moving between classes, much less pastoral support and higher expectations. I think you need a meeting with the school to discuss what is going on, and what support can be put in place. (You also need to stop comparing him to his sister).

Take him out of school.

Let the teachers get on with their job and let the other kids get their education without this pain in the neck kid disrupting it.

Did you bother to read the OP @waterrat ? Before criticising mumsnetters.

The op clearly has no intention of pursuing anything professional because adament he’s no ND.

I’ve only read your updates OP but walking out pf
class etc isn’t low level. Low level is forgetting to bring your calculator to class, chatting to the person next to you rather than doing work etc Walking out of class could be a safety risk. Is he literally sitting outside the classroom or doing something extreme like vaping outside? Is he disrupting other classes when he leaves?

How would you handle your son not getting changed while the others wait for the PE class teaching to begin? Are you saying that he would have changed if the teacher had coaxed him into doing it as if he was in reception? It has to be serious or other kids are going to do the same and the teacher loses authority over the class.

The stomach aches - I understand that it’s hard to tell if he’s trying to skive or is getting pain because he doesn’t like school. Have yoh directly asked him if he would like a change in school? How long has his behaviour been going on? Is he struggling academically and hiding this by leaving etc?

I know that the school have said no to ADHD but can you afford a private appointment? School said my son didn’t have ADHD too but he does.

I’d also be looking in his room/pockets for drugs, vapes etc so that I could cross that off the list of potential reasons why he was acting like this.

I understand why your dd is embarrassed but she needs to start thinking of ways to deal with the gossip like eye rolls, a sarcastic reply… Even if her brother moved school, people know he was always in trouble and if he moves to another school then that kind of gossip would travel back thanks to social media etc

Is he Year 9 or 10?

Has this been a recent development or has he always been difficult with school?

Have you asked him why he behaves like this? Is there something going on that makes him think he can do as he pleases? If he's Year 9 is he fed up with having to do subjects he won't choose for Options and acting up because he's bored and frustrated? What's his friendship group like?

I agree with others that you need to be focussing on your son - this kind of behaviour can have all sorts of causes from special needs to much darker stuff - but it's very difficult to address once the ball is rolling nhs and can often go downhill fast.

As for his sister - no one will be judging her based on his behaviour, they will just be relieved she's not doing that same things!

This - I think you need to research adhd and autism. My girl/boy twins never had problems in primary or high school - but both were diagnosed in mid high school to end of 6th form.
This child is acting out not acting up - he’s clearly having trouble processing his emotions which is a trait of ND.
ND is a spectrum and it’s high school where kids traits show up the most as it’s very overwhelming with different classes / trickier friendship groups / raging hormones.
Most twins are not full term and increased chance of ND especially if you had c section or steroids when pregnant.
Neither of my twins schools referred them for ND testing … they were perfectly well behaved at school but struggled at home. But when their teachers filled in the forms, its was the results of their teachers forms which effectively secured their diagnosises.

SENCO and SEMH specialist here. I agree with PP this is not low level, your DS is clearly struggling with something in the school environment. This is actually very common pattern with movement to secondary school which can take a couple of years to reach a head. Mainstream secondaries are big, intimidating places for some kids. I wouldn’t say he definitely has ADHD/ASC but there are some flags in your posts and irregardless of diagnosis he is struggling and this warrens further investigation. Has he ever had any psychometric assessments ? How’s his working memory, organisation, ability to maange a list of instructions? Difficulties in these can indicate excecutive functioning difficulties which CAN be indicative of ASC/ADHD (but isn’t always!) Has the school and yourselves done a long Connors report?

EP hours and support are very very low in mainstream. No fault of anyone’s other than the national shortage of EPs. If you can afford private I would encourage you to consider this, and as they do a range of psychometric testing including the BRIEF. If your area has a specialist teaching team I would ask for a referral for your DS to the SEMH team or equivalent. Speak to the SENCO and pastoral lead

This all been said, he does also need consequences for his behaviour, his needs could explain it but not excuse it. What are his aspirations, does he have friends. Try to help him find the words he is communicating with his behaviour. Try to work with the school, his behaviour is not low level and will be disruptive to the learning of others, and the sanctions will be similar in most mainstream settings IME. Good luck OP

I can see why you are concerned about the impact on your daughter but I do think your sons behaviour is very concerning. The things you describe are significant. Presumably he's fully aware of school rules and expectations so he's choosing to flout those or he just can't comply. That's the part that needs investigating and I would go into school, apologies if you have already and see what they suggest. I think my focus would be him rather than your daughter because he's on a tricky path.

Not an expert but it seems likely there's something underlying this behaviour. Maybe get a private assessment done for ADHD etc. Also maybe some kind of counselling? Lots of children seem to mask/cope in primary school, but struggle to adapt to secondary for whatever reason.
Would your boy talk to someone?
See @Lemoncake1991's answer really.

”he has no incentives to behave”

You mean like the other kids in his class/ year who understand what the expectations are? What incentives does he need ? Cash ? Praise for not ripping up books and not starting fights? Special dispensation to storm out of class and disrupt other pupils learning with his not low level poor behaviour and attitude.

By all means pull him out of school , but you would be better engaged talking to the school and maybe getting him moved to a PRU where he can continue to learn because otherwise he is going to continue to run rings around you.

He needs both! Someone needs to get to the bottom of the cause of his behaviour and then help him to address it. But he can't be left to carry on misbehaving without consequences in the meantime. The OP seems to think walking out of class is 'low level', well there's part of the problem. If that is being disregarded as low level then he clearly doesn't have any strict boundaries and structure. The OP also seems to be relying on school to sort this and claims that it's not her fault/problem because her other kids are fine. Where is the parenting? The school system is there to help but the responsibility lies with parents.

It’s intriguing to me how sow many posters are preoccupied by the idea he needs a ND assessment. If this is a sudden change in behaviour and he has shown no previous signs he is unlikely to be ND. Parents often claim ND in their kids to avoid parenting them.

I would try loading him up with caffeine in the morning and seeing if that calms him down.

otherwise he is going to continue to run rings around you

He sounds like an unhappy boy who is not coping and who is struggling with his peers, rather than one who is playing the system and winning.

From what I've seen there are only a few "nasty judgmental" posters. The majority has told OP that her son needs help.