To pull DS from his school

[FoxyDash]

I have boy girl twins aged 14.

DS has no diagnosis but he is really struggling behaviour wise at school.

He is in trouble pretty much every day and has had multiple isolations this term.

It feels like everything is punishment and nothing is support.

DD does not have any lessons with him but she constantly hears people telling her that her brother [name redacted] has done this or that.

She comes home upset and embarrassed even though she has done nothing wrong.

I am starting to worry it is affecting her education and confidence.

School just say they are following policy and his behaviour is unacceptable.

There seems to be no plan beyond sanctions and phone calls home.

I feel completely stuck and let down by them.

Would it be advisable to move him to another school or could that make things worse.

I was like this in secondary school actually. I was a nightmare.
Reasons that I know now as an adult but never told a soul at the time were a combination of constant bullying from an older year group, unhappiness at home that I couldnt tell anyone about, struggles with body image and hormones, coupled with adhd which was not diagnosed until adulthood.
I would have fared a lot better if allowed to study at home and be home schooled. My mum did moved my secondary school at end of year 8 as she felt they did not offer any pastoral support and I was in trouble every day, one day she had a merting with the head about my behaviour and then I never went back. She actually told me they had asked me to leave at the time. A new school did help but not resolve any issues as I was still in trouble every day.
I am still traumatised by secondary school and had actual nightmares and would wake up in the night dreaming about being in school all the way into adulthood.
I finished school with ok gcses and then i went to college which i flunked for the first year. Then i got my head together and took a levels and got a degree and now have a good career.
School at that age was just not for me. But it disnt mean I was a lost cause or a lifelong drop out. I think if he needs to be out of school then trial it but with strict boundaries and expectations on home learning. Alternatively find another school and fast.

Take a cue from him complaining kids will laugh at him for being sick. He's feeling ostracised and socially awkward.

He's only been there since September, I assume? Some kids need more help and/or time than others to settle in. Can he talk to someone about how the situation makes him feel?

None of those punishments are harsh, he should be in isolation for extended periods so he can calm down and do work.

Refusing to get changed for PE is the same as refusing to take part in the lesson, it’s INCREDIBLY disruptive.

Yes, there is likely to be something going on underneath it all - low self esteem? Fear of failure?

Agree. I think if OP thinks they are “low level” that’s part of the problem.

Something is clearly out of balance with your son. It needs getting to the bottom of - conversations with school might help but it maybe worth trying to get some therapy for him. As they say, all behaviour is communication, even the bad behaviour.
It maybe that he needs to move schools in the long term but equally he needs lots of compassion, love and understanding at the moment to get him back on track.

“DD does not have any lessons with him but she constantly hears people telling her Archie has done this or that.”

And that would no doubt still happen if his behaviour was the opposite……they’d say things like ‘Archie is the football team captain, been cast the starring role in the school play’….etc.

People will make comparisons between twins, I know it’s unfair as they each have their own personalities and characters.

As for pulling DS out of that school……is there an alternative close by or were you considering home schooling? His behaviour might be because he’s possibly being told ‘why can’t you be like your twin sister’.

Some kids choose isolation, they also show behaviours they know will get them excluded as they want to be at home.

You parent the child -

I also have twins, one dyslexic, they were always compare and he always felt not good enough - she an A* student - teacher compared, or were shocked they were twins.

He has other qualities, he loved school had great friends but was the idiot who wound up teachers, became the class clown - was isolated punished etc

I totally get where you are coming from.

You need to concentrate on him and get to the bottom of the issues. How would he solve the problem?

Why does he want to do?

Some colleges take 14 year olds for classes, they treat the kids like adults, friendlier environment, not pressured by exams etc

There are other choices.

you need to work with the school
arrange a meeting.

I think you need a meeting at the school with the pastoral team/leader in charge of behaviour with your son present.
You could ask for a managed move to another school, where if that doesn't work he gets the place back at the existing school.
I think you need to look at why he is behaving like this though. You say something things are minor, like not getting changed but actually he is being defiant which is not minor, and there are probably lots of others who were cold who didn't disobey.
What does he think will happen if he continues behaving this way? Is he hoping to be expelled? Has he understood that he has to be in education and that the other options may be equally as undesirable (split timetable across a specialist behaviour school, potentially leaving with no qualifications).
Is he expecting to just be at home doing nothing?

i cannot believe your focus is on Dd When it is your alone who is literally crying out for your attention and support.

He is very troubled- have you considered an ADHD screening? therapy? Does he have any hobbies that are positive?

poor kid.

Whilst I agree constant punishments create a self-fulfilling prophesy, a child should not be rewarded/incentivised for doing what everyone else knuckles down to without incentive. That said, whilst teachers are brilliant I think yhe size and scale of our secondary schools works against creating a good safe supportive environment for a sizeable minority, SEND or not.

I'm surprised you are not thinking ADHD. How is he with caffeine?

You need to be clear about what you want to achieve. How much have you worked with the school so far? Exactly what "incentives" do you expect them to put in place?

To take one of your examples
The other day he refused to get changed for PE because it was too cold in the changing rooms, his words, and that was an instant isolation with no discussion.

I doubt very much that DS said "it's too cold in the changing rooms, I'm not getting changed" and the teacher sent him straight to isolation. It's likely that the teacher would have made some comment such as the school heating not coping with the colder weather and he'd talk to the site manager or suggesting that he got changed quickly as he would soon warm up once running about.

What else are you expecting to happen? The teacher can't fix the heating then and there; they can't spend the lesson having a discussion with one child; they can't magic up another warmer changing area. So if your DS won't change, then he can't do the lesson, which means he has to go to another supervised area while everyone else does aka isolation. I ask again - what other conclusion were you expecting? It's also likely that DS was confrontational; so perhaps you could work on him raising issues in a constructive way; he's more likely to get a supportive response.

These aren’t low level, they are seriously disruptive to others’ education. If there is underlying disabilities you need to get him the help he needs but you also in the mean time need to work with the school an adequate discipline and crack it, it’s simply not fair on others including his sister. I’m surprised he hasn’t been suspended yet based on your post. He may need a different kind of school but he definitely needs better discipline and consequences

He sounds a real pain in the arse. These are not low level things. He must really disrupt the class. I feel sorry for the teachers these days - especially when parents are so blinkered.

Your son is being a little shit. Why are you making this all the schools responsibility? He is there a fraction of his life. Speak to him and start parenting him.

Agree

To be honest right now your son's high level. really bad behaviour that could well see another child seriously hurt and him expelled, is what you need to be working on right now. Yes moving your son's school would help your daughter, but right now your daughter's needs are not a priory, sorting out why your son is behaving like he his and stopping him before he does something with inversible and hideous consequences like throwing something, hitting a classmate's head and blinding or brain damaging them is.

They’re not low level behaviours and sound to be pretty constant. When exactly did they start? What is he like at home?
in regards to your dd, practice with her a terpene that she can use consistently when people approach her- rolling her eyes and saying ‘I don’t really want to know thanks’ then change convo.

None of what you describe as low level behaviour, is low level. What consequences does he get at home when you find out how disruptive he has been at school?

You seem totally focused on the wrong things. It’s not the school’s fault (primarily) and not really your daughter’s problem.

You also say it’s not your parenting and it’s not neurodiversity but seem to lack any curiosity of what it might be, blaming the school so you don’t have to tackle the harder problems. You definitely need to find out what is going on with your son, and the behaviour which you are totally minimising, rather than transfer the problem elsewhere.

Good luck (from a parent of 2 ND kids)

Why does he have no diagnosis? Has he not been assessed?

As someone who works in a secondary school. Kids who behave like this are a nightmare to teach and for other pupils in class. Unfortunately the OP is minimising his behaviour as low level which suggests to me she isnt addressing it.

If he isn’t listening to teachers, then he might just be naughty due to poor parenting. Most schools I’ve worked at have been great at identifying signs of autism and adhd. If you pull him out, what are you going to do with him? Is he going to play computer games all day?

I mentioned he has no diagnosis because I know that is usually the first question on here. I genuinely do not suspect ASD ADHD etc and neither does school. He has never shown any signs before secondary and was fine in primary.

But you aren’t a specialist are you? You are a psychiatrist.

if you are so sure, why not get him assessed anyway?