I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

[coffeegirl73]

Does modesty exist any more or is it just another outdated misogynistic concept designed to keep women under control. I don’t know but I’m interested what you all think. I was in a catholic school with nuns and learnt a lot about modesty. I can’t explain it to dd though - she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want . It’s confusing me

"is it just another outdated misogynistic concept designed to keep women under control".

Yes.

I can’t explain it to dd though - she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want . It’s confusing me

But this doesn't indicate that she doesn't understand?

It just indicates that she doesn't agree with it.

I don't know why you're confused?

I can see both sides, I’d hate to see my kids go out wearing a boob tube and shorts with their arse cheeks hanging out. But essentially it’s not up to you to tell her what to wear, she’s a grown woman.

I understand modesty as choosing to dress with most of your skin covered and your general shape disguised.
Or course you can bare whatever you want but women who choose to dress modestly don’t want to bare much.
Probably you could explain that in some cultures women are forced to dress modestly and have a discussion about how they are t allowed to choose how to dress.
In others, women are free to choose but may prefer to dress modestly because their beliefs dictate it, it’s more comfortable, they prefer not to show their shape and skin etc etc,
Am I missing something? Whats the difficulty explaining it?

It’s confusing you because you’re trying to argue a point you don’t understand yourself. Because it’s nonsense.

Why is it nonsense?

I’m confused as I’m starting to realize my whole upbringing and younger years I didn’t question anything. There’s such a disparity now on the one hand I see women head to toe in black with a niqab covering their faces and on the other hand I see semi naked young women. I’m trying really hard not to judge everyone’s choices but it was drilled into me you know don’t show too much cleavage etc etc that modesty is something to be proud of . But is it.

I never tell her what to wear - she often covers up if she’s going to a nightclub or whatever as she doesn’t like the unwanted attention she gets if she shows a lot of skin - her choice nothing to do with me

I'm older than her, and I honestly don't get this concept as something positive or a virtue.

What good is "modesty" or "dressing modestly" supposed to do for me? If it isn't beneficial for me, who is it beneficial for?

Yes, in some countries it is required to some extent, but that just puts those countries out of my travel list.

What you see is women making their own choices and wearing exactly what they want to wear.

I was also raised Catholic and I'm still confused about why you're confused?

Why would it be something to be proud of?

It's just clothes, down to the wearer how they feel comfortable and how they wish to look.

I would never use the word modesty, but I wouldn’t have an issue telling my DD or DS that they should walk around showing their bums to the world. It’s not rocket science.

She is right in a way but there are people who havw such low self esteem they think the way to get a man is to go out in as little as possible so they can look better than they feel, people dont want to pretend it happens but it does

And people absolutely have the right to 'show off their body' if they want too and none has the right to say anything but I am also yet to meet someone who has no mental health issues who do it, they have body issues and think it makes them feel good

Again they have the right but I have the right to think they may have issues within themselves

For example just one example I can think is my niece who is 13 and all summer last year she wore skin tight very short shorts and a crop top. My mother was a bit shocked and said to her was she going out like that and said yes what’s wrong with it. My sister didn’t see a problem. But I can see that she’s still a child and dressing like that might attract attention from let’s face it men who might not have the best intentions. My mother tried to explain it to my sister but she didn’t get it and said why shouldn’t she wear that out .

Yes it is. It's classy to be modest within healthy boundaries. Why did all the women in the older days wear beautiful clothes and now it's all trashy cheap stuff. Sad. My own dd is trying to make me feel the same way as you but I know where I stand and that's not feeling comfortable with leering men...

My mother tried to explain it to my sister but she didn’t get it and said why shouldn’t she wear that out .

Again though, of course she gets it, she just doesn't agree with it.

I don't have a DD but I don't think it is difficult to explain. Where I live and in my team at work there are women who choose to dress modestly (completely off their bat) because it accords with their religious beliefs. If you are not religious then you wear whatever you want because we live in a free country and no one has the right to tell another person what to wear. Quite simple. You are right that this is definitely a you problem and not her problem.

Do you have a kinda line in your head about what’s ok and what isnt. Like I saw a girl with shorts so short you could see mat of her bum - I mean it’s her choice to wear that but would you say anything to your own dd

This here proves your point. The unwanted attention is enough of a reason.

Fundamentally it's about respect for your body as part of a whole person.

The issue with "baring a body" isn't actually about nudity per se. If you live in the Amazon jungle where no one wears many clothes, because they will rot and give you skin diseases, nudity is not sexualized, and so it's not immodest. Just like it's not immodest in certain settings here either, like medical settings, or (potentially) at the beach.

But for the most part the reason women's clothing is showing off a lot of skin is in order to overtly sexualize that body, in a public kind of way, and in isolation from the whole person and her relationships to others. It's a kind of commodification that is inherently transactional and depersonaliized.

It's actually the mirror image of extreme forms of covering women's bodies because they are seen as too sexual. Both reduce women to being defined, publicly, primarily as sexual objects to those they do not have intimate relationships with.

What I don’t understand is where is the line. Why wouldn’t people walk around with their bums on show? Or with boobs on full display? Surely covering up any part of your body could be considered modest? Isnt it all relative; I could be considered modest in a bikini vs someone in the nude and someone wearing a coverup even more so?
Where is the line between modest or not?
I think the religious definition of modesty is based on strict ‘rules’ and anything less is not modest. But if you’re not religious and don’t want to follow said religious rules then surely anything is considered modest?

X posted and I Love this explanation!

@Pinkflowersinavaseso to that my dd would say you are being controlled by “the male gaze” I feel the same as you tho btw

Why is modesty only ever used in context of girls? My son has been sitting in the house all day with his nipples and lower legs on display. Should I have a word with him about dressing modestly?

In my opinion, teaching young women to understand their motivation for things is more important than teaching "this is an acceptable skirt length".

Both the woman in the niqab and the woman in the mini skirt could be wearing their garments to appeal to a misogynistic ideal set by our patriarchal society. It just comes in different forms.

Understanding that wearing whatever we think we want to wear has to come with internal analysis of all the factors that contribute to those choices.

It suits society for us to be both Madonna or the Whore, and whichever we choose is wrong.

There is nothing inherently wrong with dressing completely modestly, or dressing completely the opposite... But thinking that it's all down to an "independent" decision based on feminist free will is simple incorrect.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be attractive to men... But are we dressing in a way that contributes to the commodifying of women's bodies?

Or are we dressing this way because the sun feels good on our bodies and we like the way we look, independent of outside influences.

And don't forget, religion is the basis of most of the oppression of women. It has been used to keep us in a very small box while men have had their way in the world, doing appalling things hidden behind the face of righteousness. Is adhering to modestly laws set out by these men really our choice? When we face shunning and shaming from our communities?

There is so much hypocrisy, victim blaming, slut shaming around women who wear less clothing... And then there's mocking of those who don't. They are prudes and boring and men will say that is what they want, whilst watching porn of the opposite.

Women literally can't win. So teaching daughters all of the context surrounding why we may choose to wear what we do, is really important. As is the attitude of "fuck it".

But it's an incredibly complex topic.