I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

[coffeegirl73]

Does modesty exist any more or is it just another outdated misogynistic concept designed to keep women under control. I don’t know but I’m interested what you all think. I was in a catholic school with nuns and learnt a lot about modesty. I can’t explain it to dd though - she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want . It’s confusing me

@coffeegirl73
Women can wear what they like OP. Soz. HTH.

This. I fully understand that any adult is perfectly entitled to wear whatever they want to. They also need to understand, though, that certain sick people will perceive that as an invitation. Wrong, of course, but it’s not an ideal world.

wearing clothes that you choose to, that is not impacting other people

Wrong, unless you are staying at home and live alone.
What you wear in a public place DOES impact other people, because they have no choice - they see you. They can then choose to look away or look down, but they have already seen you at that point.

The primary purpose of clothes is to signal to other people, i.e. to be seen by others. You may not like it, but that is the way it is.

So - are your clothes screaming "look at me, look at me, look at me"? If so, it is good to be aware of that.

Young women WANT to be seen; evolutionarily, that is the prime method of finding a mate.
But it is not a free-for all; there are social expectations and norms about what is appropriate in what circumstances.
Issues arise when young women are inexperienced in finessing their choices, so inadvertently go too far in "showing off", i.e. being inappropriately immodest, without realising that is what they are doing.

And yet look at the outrage on MN about the naked bike ride, which is attended by both sexes.

Fair point.

’modesty’ is sometimes a red herring.

Much of what is talked about out in this thread is either basic cultural expectations etiquette in the UK, and or body shaming.

It isn’t normal to show the whole of breasts in this country, or genitals / genital area, and what is perfectly polite in the beach may not be seen as ok in a restaurant.

And what is or is not etiquette/ good manners should not depend on whether anyone sees that body as aesthetically pleasing.

Arses are just that, not ‘horrible hairy arses’, breasts are just that, not ‘saggy’ or sexualised.etc etc.

Withon our socially accepted etiquette everyone has equal right to have their body on show or not. Stop with the body shaming for the old, the fat, the maternally stretch-marked, etc etc.

Women can wear what they want … within the bounds of society which change all the time

but also women’s clothing choices are given meaning even if you would rather they were not .

The suit for an interview

the revealing number
vs the less revealing for a night out before and after you have a boyfriend - it’s just what people do. You can read a lot about a woman’s self confidence and self esteem in clothing choices and that reading tends to be pretty accurate

womwns clothing isn’t neutral soace ( even if it should be )

@AllTheChaos Did you not reread the part I quoted?

"usually the torso from roughly armpits down, buttocks, and upper legs - so say mid thigh upwards. There is also an expectation that men will keep these areas covered, but not so much of a taboo if they don’t, and in hot weather or on the beach this taboo is lifted for men."

You explicitly stated that there is not so much of a taboo if men don't cover their arses, and in hot weather or on the beach, there is no taboo about men having their arses covered.

You are categorically wrong on that. Almost everyone would be rightly disgusted if a man exposed his hairy disgusting arse in public.

The same taboo does not exist for women because women's arses are not offensive. This is why women are permitted to wear skirts that are short enough to show their arse, or to show their arse completely on the beach.

I would say in general, there is much less of an expectation for women to remain covered because their bodies are less offensive, and indeed, women generally dress in a way in which a lot less of their bodies are covered (for example, legs, arms, lower abdomen, arse, etc).

Even with the chest area, women will show far more of this than men do. Literally the only exception to that is the nipple, which women will always keep covered. Men can go topless, but only at a swimming pool, beach, or when sunbathing (sunbathing is a silly activity, though that's a discussion for another day). Any man who went topless in a street (for example) would look somewhat odd.

By the way... the expectation for women to cover their nipples varies greatly from culture to culture. For example, in mainland Europe, it is very normal and common for women to go completely topless on the beach, and no one bats an eyelid at this.

I find this whole subject tricky.

On the one hand, I have 2 daughters and I think they should wear what they like and not feel ashamed to do so.

On the other hand, why does this always seem to translate to wearing as little as possible? Apparently it's "empowerment" for women to dress as they wish yet this also seems to mean "look as sexy as possible"

Men don't seem to feel the need to flash their bodies to feel "empowered" and so as much as we dress it up as wearing what you like, young girls and women still seem to absorb the idea that they need to show off their bodies.

I don't know if this has anything to do with what you're saying but is just something I am noticing more and more as the girls grow up and their friends begin to become obsessed with teeny tiny clothing

In my mind 'modesty' means:

'men can't/won't be held accountable for their actions, so it is your job to cover up, even though what you wear makes no difference to your likelihood of getting attacked. But at least we can blame you'

The UN had a great exhibition in New York showing the outfits women were wearing when they were attacked.

Turns out it was clothes. A wide variety of them.

Fuck 'modesty'

spotlightinitiative.org/news/what-were-you-wearing-un-exhibit-demands-justice-survivors-sexual-violence

But I agree that tiny clothing can appeal if you are absorbing the message that you are there to be looked at, and that your power comes from how desirable you are as an object for the make gaze.

That can all fuck off too.

...but the Lime bike saddles.... 😆

The latter, 100%

Let your daughter dress how she wants to.
I am Muslim and I have just started wearing a headscarf, when people ask me why I just say because I want to - that should be a good enough reason for us women.

Before wearing a headscarf, last week, I wore strappy dresses, tight bodycon dresses, jeans with cropped tops - again I did it because I wanted to.

As long as your daughter is not dressing inappropriate then she doesn't have to dress modest if she doesn't want to.

I saw a lady wearing a micro mini skirt to a play group where she was bending down numerous times to attend to her toddler, each time flashing her knickers and parts. It was a little ridiculous as her whole ass was on display when she wasn't even bending down.

However had she been at a club or the beach, I wouldn't even have noticed!

Just teach your daughter to be sensible and aware of her surroundings and she will dress fine I am sure

Of course it isn’t something ‘to be proud of’. It’s a culturally-relative mess of patriarchal nonsense based on the idea that women’s bodies are inherently sexual and need to be kept for viewing by those with ownership privileges.

Whether someone perambulates around town in scrunch-bum leggings and a bikini top or a bonnet and crinoline is fine as long as it’s not a coerced choice.

Perhaps you need to understand (face the fact) that certain sick people (men) will perceive a young woman's very existence as a sexual invitation.

Clothes don't cause rape. Or sexual harassment: in the noughties, I used to pass a secondary school on my way to work. The girls wore their uniform skirts mid-calf length, not rolled up. The racket from men in cars was deafening. Every single morning. Men on foot would hassle them.

The first attempted rape I experienced was at age 12, in regulation uniform complete with 'school knickers'. Come to think of it, that might be why I never did buy into the fallacy that predators respect staid clothing.

Probably slightly off topic, but this thread reminded me of a cartoon strip I saw years and years ago.
A young woman had gone to a pool party at her friend's house but had forgotten her bikini. Friend tells her to go into her bedroom and borrow one from the bedside cupboard.
Young woman comes back and is happily walking round the pool in her borrowed finery, when the friend calls out 'did you get that from the top drawer? That's not a bikini, that's underwear!'
And the young woman is instantly ashamed and mortified and runs away to change and everyone is laughing at her.
The moral of the story was, I suppose, what's the difference between a bikini and a bra and pants combo?
Why embarrassment to be seen in one set, but happy to be seen in the other?

This will always end up as a circular debate. Women should able to bare what they want to bare, free of objectification and judgement. Yet baring what they want to will lead to objectification. But objectifying women is a man’s issue and not the woman’s. Yet the positive feeling of displaying your body as a woman is intrinsically linked to women having been objectified in the first place.

YY. We have women here, relieved to be no longer hassled by men now they're wearing bigger, looser clothes - failing to link the fact that they started wearing them when they got older and fatter!

They'd be hassled less now, regardless of clothing. They'd have been hassled when young, whatever they wore. If they started covering up because they felt they 'should' cover an older, fatter body, they're still allowing men's sexual preferences to dictate their wardrobe.

@coffeegirl73 - you keep saying that you're confused.

What you appear to be confused about is why your daughter doesn't think the same way as you regarding how she dresses

There's no need for you to be confused

Not everyone thinks as you do

We're all different and we all think differently and have different beliefs and ways of living/dressing etc

No need for you to be confused

I hope that helps 🙂

nailed it

21 is young in terms of maturity. She’ll think differently in her 30s+. She hasn’t lived much life at 21.

I has zero self esteem issues, no mental health problems, no body image problems when I was younger. I wore low cut tops and short skirts because I liked the way I looked in them. I also wore long maxi dresses and dungarees, because I liked the way I looked in them. It had nothing to do with showing off anything, I just chose to wear whatever I wanted on any given day. Same as I do now.

Why is it only young women who are assumed not to know their own minds when it comes to what they wear? Men dress how they want, showing skin or not are we labelling them all as having body image issues and mental health problem? No, so it can’t be an age thing. Older women who have fabulous figures can wear figure hugging clothes and we are celebrate them, saying how great they look for their age, so it’s can’t be a woman thing.

Perhaps it’s that we insist on still calling young women “girls” so continue to infantilise them and assume they are too young and stupid to know their own minds.

Is he okay with seeing slim women, with what he considers attractive bodies, in those clothes though?
FFS, women don't need to dress to please men, and even if they want to, they probably don't give a fuck what your husband, who's probably old enough to be their father or grandfather, thinks.