I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

[coffeegirl73]

Does modesty exist any more or is it just another outdated misogynistic concept designed to keep women under control. I don’t know but I’m interested what you all think. I was in a catholic school with nuns and learnt a lot about modesty. I can’t explain it to dd though - she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want . It’s confusing me

Very insightful thanks @TempestTost

My understanding is that modesty and being modest is simply another way to saying 'don't bring attention to yourself'.

Dressing modestly would be not having excess skin on show (not sure how anyone assesses too much). Being modest about achievements etc is basically seen as not bragging.

It's probably considered to be an old fashioned value these days where children are exposed to the land of reality TV, body enhancements and a sense of entitlement.

Just her existence can attract the attention of really bad people.
The idea that more clothing can protect her against them is mostly a wishful thinking on your side. It might make a difference with the less serious ones - and that is something she will decide for herself, and she will be changing her position as she goes, but with the real creeps it isn't about what she wears.

Well put -it is confusing I think to me at any rate

Why are you even trying to ‘explain modesty’ to a grown adult woman? She’s 21, not 12. She can wear whatever she wants and it’s not your place to tell her what is or isn’t appropriate. She’s an adult.

She also clearly does understand, but simply disagrees with you.

There's dressing modestly, which yes is an outdated concept and behaving modestly...

But you can apply both terms to things which are still socially acceptable / recommended.

For example...(and I'm speaking generally), most workplaces don't consider it professional for employees of any sex to turn up in hot pants or crop tops. Rather than talking of dressing modestly, we say dressing professionally but for all intents and purposes they're the same.

Likewise, most people believe in dressing respectfully in places or worship (or in court!). More so in Catholic countries than here and of course it doesn't mean that showing one's knees & shoulders mean one is excluded from a religion...Again, we talk about dressing respectfully rather than modestly.

Modest behaviour these days means behaving with consideration of others and not being an arrogant show-off. We don't generally describe this as modest behaviour, but that's what it is.

Don't ask me how we explain professional or respectful dress codes without bringing sex and patriarchal codes into it because I don't know!

I have explained the following to my DD, albeit on more age appropriate language: There are parts of the body that, in Western culture, must be kept covered in public (genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts). Beyond this there is also an expectation that women will keep a certain minimum of the rest of their body covered, usually the torso from roughly armpits down, buttocks, and upper legs - so say mid thigh upwards. There is also an expectation that men will keep these areas covered, but not so much of a taboo if they don’t, and in hot weather or on the beach this taboo is lifted for men. The taboo is reduced for women in the heat and at the beach, the latter allowing for the baring of the stomach, back, upper legs and on occasion part of the buttocks (generally in a bikini). These expectations are based on sociocultural norms, which in part in this country have their roots in the interpretation of the Abrahamic (Christian) religious texts. Other regions where historically the majority of the population follow certain specific religions (including but not limited to the Abrahamic religions) also tend to have such norms. These norms are not universal, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong or shameful about any part of the body, or having it exposed. Modesty is the concept that tends to be used to apply to women who meet these societal cultural norms, with those who do not do so being viewed as ‘immodest’. This comes with a hefty dose of judgement, which is indeed rooted in patriarchy. If a woman is the chattel of a man then, bluntly, only that man gets to ‘view the goods’. Levi Strauss wrote some interesting stuff about the ‘ownership’ of, and access to, women by men, and the means by which men seek to control and limit the access of other men to the women that are their chattels (eg their wives and daughters). Broadly, if men aren’t expected to do it - then expecting it of women is probably sexism at work. Having said that, I personally prefer not expose much skin because of the semiotic of that in our society, and how I fear I would be viewed. As I get older that remains, it’s just that instead of fearing being seen as ‘tarty’ or ‘available’, I worry about looking like I am going gaga and forgetting to wear proper clothes, or looking desperate for male attention or approval when the way I look these days means I’m not going to get it. I also worry that sight of my aging, flabby body would be unpleasant for onlookers.

TL: DR Yep it’s patriarchy, sexism, and always a good way of victim blaming (as in ‘immodest’ women deserve whatever bad treatment they get from men)

Women and girls don’t have to modify what they wear because men can’t control themselves.

Oh god that What she was wearing exhibition was an eye opener 🥺, but then men walking around Aldi with their shirts off on a hot day told me everything I need to know - that I want to come back as a cat in the next life.

I was never taught about ‘modesty’ tbh. I was fine wearing whatever I wanted and my parents never said anything negative about it.
But they are very forward thinking, liberal people.

Nowadays more people are non-religious and more chilled out, less interested in old fashioned ideas.
‘Modesty’ seems pretty misogynistic to me. Regardless of religion.

I think this is it. In London no one bats an eyelid to what anyone else is wearing. I saw a man in Knightsbridge with leather studded pants and other fetish wear walking his dog. It was an unattractive sight but each to their own.

I also dislike cleavage, male or female. I really don’t want to see the gap between two breasts / pecs. It makes me queasy.

Did your dd go to a school with uniform? Schools spend lots of energy on skirt lengths - does your dd think that they have an obligation to protect girls’ modesty by having rules about length?

What about different occasions? Would your dd wear something more conservative or a funeral or if a conservative relative was getting married so she looked more “respectful” and not draw attention to herself by showing cleavage? If she worked with young children, would she be mindful of her neckline because she’d be spending lots of time bending down? In theory women can wear whatever but would she be ok with her barrister in court or voting for a “sexy” PM?

I think for me it’s two fold; bearing all and being seen.

Whilst occasionally you may wear something more revealing I come back to the adage that you tell your children that not everyone wants to hear them when they are being loud, well not everyone wants to see them when they are less than modest.

Modesty isn’t about the outfit but about the setting, a bikini at the pool be body confident, a skimpy outfit in church perhaps not.

Body confidence and outfit choice are more about appropriateness of time than misogyny for me.

The idea isn't that clothing will protect her.

It's that putting children into styles of clothing that were designed to highlight the sexual attractivness of adult women is problematic. The clothing doesn't lose those associations just because the person wearing them is a child.

That has a number of issues, one being what the child does or does not understand about this herself. But also - some men are particularly attracted to just that kind of contrast. They may also see it as a signal the parents may not be watching out for signs of the daughter being exposed to adult material.

what is modesty for men?

I would vote for not using a farting car exhaust as it makes you look uneducated, poor and aggressive. OIK.

This, with bells on. Society has moved away from having "norms", which some may say is a good thing, however, as someone who crumbles in situations where boundaries are not apparent and therefore I don't know what I should be aiming for / working to / etc., I don't think it's all that great.

To me, the argument of "why shouldn't I bare as much as I like?" is no different from someone blurting out every last thing they see, just because they are physically able to vocalise it...no, we make dynamic choices and judgements, and react & behave accordingly. Someone I know made the choice not to wear her wig yesterday, given that she's almost 90 and the heat was unbearable. Yes, I was shocked when I saw her totally bald (even though I had suspected it was a wig), but I chose not to mention it even though I could.

Most religions that require modesty for woman also require it for men. Muslim men, for example, also have modesty rules they have to follow.

But I think a lot of the supposed confusion on this comes down to the fact that people don't seem to want to acknowledge that women's fashion in particular is often designed to present them as sexual objects ni a way we don't typically see with men's clothing.

It's weird, because almost anyone you talk to understand easily that the fashion industry does this, that advertising and the music industry spend a huge amount of time and effort using women's bodies as sexual objects to make money.

But for some reason when it comes down to asking about modesty, or why some types of clothing on children might be seen as inappropriate, they can't remember the thing they knew 5 minutes ago.

@coffeegirl73 she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want

Putting aside the issue of clothing, I'm concerned that DD can't see that this reasoning is nonsensical. Obviously, being able to bare whatever you want is not an absolute right, and there are restrictions and what people can and can't show.

I am more worried about your DD's logic and reasoning skills rather than anything she wears.

@AllTheChaos Beyond this there is also an expectation that women will keep a certain minimum of the rest of their body covered, usually the torso from roughly armpits down, buttocks, and upper legs - so say mid thigh upwards. There is also an expectation that men will keep these areas covered, but not so much of a taboo if they don’t, and in hot weather or on the beach this taboo is lifted for men.

What on earth are you talking about? The last time I checked, it's fine for women to wear bikinis that show their arses. It is not socially acceptable for a man to show his arse in public (and rightfully so- no one wants to see a horrible hairy arse).

Modesty isn't just for women, it is also for men.

You seem to have a hard time differentiating between people ‘understanding’ an issue, and just disagreeing with you.
what you wear doesn’t make you more or less a target from men. And even if it did it’s still their mistake not hers.

modesty is morally neutral, it’s not good or bad, it just exists. If you want to be modest, fine, beyond that it’s not your business.

Before this century, I never heard 'modest' being used to describe clothing. I would have recognised what a nun meant, for instance, if she spoke of 'modest clothing' but I'd have found it quite amusing.

Modest means moderate, not bragging or showing off. For some reason, 'modest' has now been replaced by 'humble' on social media. (Humble really means something far more self-effacing than modest.) This leaves poor old 'modest' with nothing to do but act as a fashion diktat.

So ... moderate, unostentatious clothing. Those parameters vary by situation, because clothing is primarily a social instrument. All you really need is a blanket, or nothing if it's hot. We wear clothes to meet our culture's standards of decency: some cultures say no flesh may be exposed, some say cover the genitals, some say full nudity's okay. Beyond that, we wear clothes to advertise where we belong, our social or professional rank, our beliefs or clan/tribe, our personalities and so on.

'Moderate' dress for a gala ball looks completely different from the 'moderate' outfit you might wear to an office interview. Some social occasions actually require ostentatious dress, so a modest outfit would single you out as (immodestly) making a point. But, should someone admire your ultra-flashy attire, your reply would be modest if you have good manners.

I'm no scholar of medieval Arabic, but I strongly doubt that the word translated as 'modest' actually means modest. It probably means something like 'meeting the rules of decency as understood in 7th century Saudi Arabian society'.

As a concept to be applied across time and through many cultures, a modest outfit should be a middle-of-the-road effort to blend in with the prevailing norms: not trying to show off or make a point. If being worn by a young woman at a party in a night club, it would likely be tight or revealing. If you want 'modest' to mean something closer to medieval Saudi Arabia, you really should choose a different word.

What is it that you're trying to tell your daughter, @coffeegirl73? To wear more boring clothes? To look like she's not proud of herself? To cover 20% more of her flesh than other women her age? If you manage to put your finger on it, you'll be a lot closer to understanding why you feel it's better to dress that way.

Which part are you confused by?

Blurting out everything you want to say is not the same as wearing clothes that you choose to, that is not impacting other people. I will wear what I choose, what I feel good in. I’ve got good legs, I will wear shorts for ME

Society has moved away from having "norms", which some may say is a good thing, however, as someone who crumbles in situations where boundaries are not apparent and therefore I don't know what I should be aiming for / working to / etc., I don't think it's all that great.

That's your issue and nobody else’s.