I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

[coffeegirl73]

Does modesty exist any more or is it just another outdated misogynistic concept designed to keep women under control. I don’t know but I’m interested what you all think. I was in a catholic school with nuns and learnt a lot about modesty. I can’t explain it to dd though - she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want . It’s confusing me

And I’d question - if you want to wear shorts that show your bum cheeks - are you doing it because you want to, really? Or is it a tiny bit because you have been told to do that to be attractive?

Men wore speedos when I was young, left nothing to the imagination. Now it's all board shorts. Nothing to see here. Funny how things change.

I haven't read the whole thread. 'Modesty' is the notion that a woman's sexuality must be concealed from the world, until a nominated man is allowed exclusive access to it (personally I think the burka is the enduring example of this 'ownership' of a woman's body by her husband). Because in the mind of these people, a woman's body is a purely sexual thing, not the useful tool that enables us to move around as we wish.

What you're describing is a woman choosing to wear what she feels comfortable in, both physically and as a reflection of her personality and preferences. So, a teenage girl might reveal more of her body for lots of reasons - some of which might be her choice and some might be social pressure - but the key thing is that no-one is deciding for her that her body is or isn't for public view. Personally I prefer not to reveal that much of my body but that's my choice and what I think suits me. Nothing to do with an external expectation of 'modesty', which is basically control of women's freedom.

If you think clothing choices protect you from male aggression, you haven’t seen the exhibitions of rape victims’ clothing. You might want to Google them. The babygros and toddler outfits are what stand out; the adult clothes are completely unremarkable. The most common clothes for a victim to be wearing is jeans.

she's 21!

Rather than teach about modesty, why not discuss self respect. Where has that gone? That's what I think when I see how some young folk dress. Surely that should still be something to be proud of....

It's also used in a non clothes/appearance related sense as well though....as in not showing off. That is probably more straight forward to explain.

I suppose it depends on your church/school etc. but I never thought Catholicism was that strict on clothes modesty outside of church buildings...just keeping shoulders covered and skirts/shorts down to about your knees. My mum for instance never talked about modesty when I went out....I could always wear what I wanted as long as I brought a jacket 'so you don't freeze'.

In my 30s I hardly ever wear revealing clothes now but that's mainly because it's more practical with DC (e.g. if you end up having to rescue someone from a climbing frame)

Yes, any "modesty" in dress is almost always a value judgement on women, I agree.

I guess in my earlier post when talking about the freedom to dress modestly I was thinking more about the other non-sexualised meaning of modesty, as in unassuming, not showing off. Just that I don't have to constantly dazzle people with my fabulousness, they can find it out gradually 😆

I have conflicting opinions about this too. It’s tied up with body shaming and class and freedom and misogyny and self expression and an over sexualised culture. It’s really hard to untangle why I feel like you should be allowed to wear whatever you like, but not wanting my daughter and her friends to wear skimpy outfits.
And while I theoretically support freedom of all women to wear wherever they like and express themselves, sometimes I think women/girls look really un-classy in little outfits and I don’t like that about myself. I associate lots of skin on show with a poor education, which is a prejudice I can’t shake off.

I wore little outfits when I was younger and was sexually assaulted, probably unlinked, but I don’t want that for my daughter, so to try to have some aspect of modesty without victim blaming is an almost impossible line to walk, but I do try.

Modesty in how we dress isn’t about hiding who we are. It is about showing up with self-respect and confidence without feeling the need to put everything on display. In a world that’s so focused on appearances, it shifts the emphasis from “look at me” to “get to know me.”

Choosing to dress modestly encourages people to focus on who we are as a person, not just what we look like. I

Let’s be honest—there’s a lot of pressure out there, especially for women and girls, to dress in ways that get attention or fit into some ideal. But modesty can actually be empowering. It’s a way to take back control of how we present ourselves and to raise the standard for how we are seen and treated.

I could be considered modest in a bikini vs someone in the nude and someone wearing a coverup even more so?

I think not wearing clothes is often less sexual. It’s just a body. Put someone in a gimp suit and it’s clearly more immodest even though covered.
I think nude sunbathers look less sexualised than the thing/ g string bikini bottoms, whose purpose is to draw attention to the arse

I think I have always dressed 'modestly', not because of what men may or may not think about me, but because I don't want anybody to catch sight of my private areas by mistake. Actually, I also don't really want to see anybody else's bits on display, even at the beach - I think these tiny, tiny bikinis are just awful - certainly not flattering, and they look quite uncomfortable.

I remember being annoyed a few years back when 'modesty' shorts appeared for primary-aged girls to wear under their school dress - the implication being that ordinary knickers were 'immodest'.

I've never heard modesty used in relation to men/boys appearance.

@coffeegirl73 with regards to your 13 year old niece perhaps your sister realises that her daughter could attract unwanted attention from men with bad intentions whatever she wears and needs to be prepared and know how to protect herself if it happens.

At 14 I was knocked to the ground and sexually assaulted in the street while wearing my school uniform trousers and a school jumper. I scared him off and prevented being raped because my mum had always told me to scream and shout as loud as I can if approached or attacked by a stranger. Luckily that tactic worked for me in that moment and I was helped by a women who heard my screaming.

If I'd been dressed in a crop top and tight shorts would you have held me partially to blame for that man's actions?

I think the word "modesty" has been hijacked as a way to make women responsible and feel shamed for male sexual aggression perpetrated against them.

I am pretty sure that there was a brand of sanitary pads in the eighties called "modesty" lilac packet? Am I imagining this?

The point is that some things are private. No-one doubts that your genitals are private - you don't go round flashing them in public. The question of where you draw the line is a question of modesty, which is a complex personal judgement. At extremes (full face covering at one end, pornography at the other) I think female exploitation certainly does play a role. As women though, we decide where to position ourselves mostly in the middle ground - how much cleavage to flash, how forward to be with men, how much casual sex, etc. Within the scope of that decision I think personal boundaries and knowing your worth are important and are expressed through modesty. Too much and it certainly implies someone is out of control and hasn't thought things through. Or maybe just drunk.

Look at the dictionary definition.

It basically means not broadcasting / showing off.

As regards to dress, yes it shares a section of the Venn diagram with misogyny , but if you don’t want men out and about wearing stretchy Lycra shorts in semi opaque fabric that lets you see whether they are circumcised, it’s also ok to suggest that micro Lycra barely covering vulva and nipples is not within our cultural etiquette.

I think modesty applies to men and women. I don't want to see anyone's bum cheeks or genitals in the street regardless of their sex. I don't want to see anyone's nipples either. Men swimming in shorts doesn't bother me but I don't want them in the streets without a top on.

This is interesting. I’m going to assume your son was wearing loose and comfy shorts in this heat. The only man I’ve even personally known to wear micro shorts with his butt cheeks very much in evidence was a gay man on his way to a club. Even in the 80s, when men’s shorts were much smaller than they are now, they were large enough to be decent. This isn’t what’s normally available for girls. There’s a disconnect between what society teaches us is appropriate for men and for women.

I find it very odd that when little children are in KS1 we teach them about the no pants rule. It’s unacceptable (obviously) to touch, to look etc. And yet, from year 6 onwards they want and are encouraged to wear clothing that sexualises them and this is normalised to the point that they feel they’re empowered if they reveal what they’ve previously been taught (for their own safety) is private.
it’s a confused and confusing world

The way I explain it to my (early teens DD) is dressing for the occasion and your age. It tends to work well to find that very precarious balance.

Just to chuck another point in - I don't like seeing men wandering around without a top on/shirt open in hot weather. (However toned they are!) So I go for 'modest' dressing of men and women - very much not having everything on display......

I disagree.

I think modesty means not flaunting your sexuality as your best/most valued/most important attribute.

Excellent 👌 post. 👏

I am talking about societal norms. As I said in the rest of my post - which you didn’t include in the quoted section, these norms change IN SITUATIONS LIKE THE BEACH WHEN WOMEN ARE WEARING BIKINIS. Whereas for men, going eg topless on the street is less frowned upon, but for women is a no no. And women generally don’t wear bikinis except in situations like the beach, pool etc, ie not to nip to Tescos. I’m not saying I agree with these norms, just that I recognise them, and the fact that there are double standard via a vis expectations for males vs females. So, slowly for those at the back: women are expected to cover up more than men, except in specific circumstances, and even then there are double standards.