I can’t explain what modesty means to my dd age 21

[coffeegirl73]

Does modesty exist any more or is it just another outdated misogynistic concept designed to keep women under control. I don’t know but I’m interested what you all think. I was in a catholic school with nuns and learnt a lot about modesty. I can’t explain it to dd though - she just keeps saying but why shouldn’t women bare whatever they want . It’s confusing me

My Mum and two of her sisters were taken into care in the 1960s and ended up in a convent home with nuns who systematically tortured and abused them. She’s now in her 70s and is still scarred by what they did to her. So, to be totally honest, I couldn’t give a fuck what those sadistic, twisted, evil bitches had to say about what you should or shouldn’t wear and how you should or shouldn’t wear it. They are in no moral position to dictate what is acceptable or appropriate, especially to young, vulnerable and impressionable girls.

All clothing choices send signals. We do have choices in the UK within parameters. There is a big difference between dressing for practicality and comfort and dressing to accentuate sexual characteristics.

Women feeling obliged to cover up OR to display themselves are both problematic.

There is a large community of travellers where I live and I find their culture very interesting. The women often appear to face expectations to fit a gender role of housewife/mother with early marriage but the current fashion amongst young traveller girls is shockingly sexualised. Young teens out in town yesterday in tiny scrunch bum shorts with crop tops. Heavy make up with nylon lashes. Not the most comfortable outfits for sweltering weather.

I struggle with the idea of modesty too. I think it boils down to defending and supporting women wearing whatever they want but at the same time acknowledging that we are basically female mammals living amongst constant potential unwanted attention from males so should be aware of the signals we’re sending.

I would worry that your DD is either naive about how women are sexualised in our society or she does realise how women are objectified and doesn't care and wants to join in the game.

I think one of the saddest parts about how young women dress these days is that in the main the clothes they wear are cheap quality and unflattering. They give the impression that the wearer actually doesn't care about looking good and that she herself is just interested in presenting as much bare flesh to the world as possible. And it looks as though they are desperate for attention of any kind.

@rowenwren but women and older girls should definitely be aware that many men will definitely be staring at them (thinking things), if they are strolling around on full display. It isn't "fair" but if you left all your windows and doors wide open,it wouldn't be "fair" if your house was rifled through/burgled.
Clearly lots of women like/don't mind being letched over, but I do, so I dress accordingly in public.
It's just basic security.

Modesty is damaging. If I am too modest about my successes then they tend to be devalued by others. Nothing to do with clothing in that interpretation of modesty.

Men are also very much judged for walking around without tops on in public (when not on the beach)!

I see the notion of modesty being more related to manners than misogyny nowadays. It's been used as a female insult, but is equally as applicable to men. Someone up thread referenced school skirts - as a female teacher, I don't want to see arses or sanitary towels when girls' skirts are too short. I don't want to see men with their tops off, it's quite repellent (particularly when coupled with sad looking boxers under droopy shorts, dirty white socks and sliders). IPeople can wear whatever they want but manners would mean with thought for audience or situation. Seeing as noone gives a flying fuck about anyone else anymore, modesty is gone and while the Victorians used to swoon at an ankle, we are now increasingly immune to nipples in public. I don't feel society is better for it.

Your analogy implies It's almost as if they're asking for it.

Oh and the way you dress will not protect you.

Its interesting that most people thought immediately of clothes when they saw that title. I was raised nominally Catholic and my family is Middle Eastern, and we talked about modesty (for men and women alike!) as not boasting or showing off or self-aggrandizing, being a gracious whether you win or lose, crediting others, and so on. I don't think my parents would have been happy if I dressed in revealing clothes, but...I never wanted to, which I guess vaguely stemmed from the broader idea of modesty?

It sounds like she understands what you mean by modesty, but you aren't explaining WHY you think it's important. The fact that you were taught by nuns suggests that you were given some sort of biblical or religious reason. But did you ever question whether those reasons were valid? Do you question it now? Or were they just 'rules' you were supposed to obey because somebody (a god, nun, book, priest etc) said so?

It's not. There are modesty rules for men too. Topless in public is not considered polite, even for men. Some religious men dress modestly as part of their religion. Some churches don't allow male visitors in shorts.

I think you can acknowledge it's misogynistic rubbish but also talk about how people ARE misogynistic and judgemental . So essentially, yes, you should be able to wear what you want BUT people will judge you. If you're ok with that, and want to fight the fight, then fine, but be aware that it might mean people and often other women, will see you in a certain unfavourable light.

I think it's ok to recognise that without agreeing with it.

Yes, if you're modest at job interviews, you won't get anywhere.

In the verses on hijab, the Quran instructs men to lower their gaze and guard their chastity before it even addresses women's covering: the instruction to men comes first. Of course, some Muslims conveniently overlook this, but many take it seriously.

I agree with the above re misogyny etc and that how a women dresses should be her choice. Having said that when we visited Muslim countries such as Turkey and went in religious and holy buildings such as the haggia Sophia grand mosque men as well as women were instructed to dress modestly. I resented having to cover my head, but respect their culture

No, it’s extremes that are damaging. You can be modest about your successes by honestly stating your role and what you achieved without being a braggart. If your are TOO modest and play down your role or give too much credit to other people that’s when your successes get devalued.

It’s the same with clothing, you can be modest without covering yourself from top to toe. It’s about wearing clothing that’s appropriate for the location, occasion and audience. You wouldn’t wear a bikini to a christening in a church, but it would be appropriate at a beach. A bikini with postage stamp sized top and a thong bottom wouldn’t be appropriate on a family beach with kids around but would on an adult beach at a club 18-24 type location.

The word "modesty" probably does carry outdated connotations - it makes me think that the main consideration in every single thing women wear/do is the potential impact on men.

However, I have no patience with the notion that dressing very explicitly for the male gaze is somehow liberating or empowering without being in any way sexual.

I'm a teacher, and the girls are always saying things to us like "we're literally just existing in our own bodies, and you're sexualising us (by suggesting it's inappropriate to wear a skirt so short that you can see our butt cheeks)". And I usually get a conversation started by asking them how come, in our society, manufacturers don't even make those sorts of clothes for boys/men.

As I said ‘too modest’. The ‘too’ is the important part. I agree.

We draw the line at public nudity but with skin tone crop tops and bum scrunch shorts we are getting closer and closer to it. The arguments re your body/ your choice for wearing those garments could equally apply to being completely naked. So when that final line is crossed are we going to be ok with that too or be called prudish or controlling if we object?
I don’t think I’m articulating this very well. There are some great explanations made by previous posters about the subconscious influences on what we choose to wear. But I don’t think the move towards almost nudity is a good freeing thing.
As for men dressing modestly, I haven’t noticed that either. St Peters in Rome used to require men to wear long trousers but I noticed at the late Popes lying in state, men wearing shorts and t shirts were being let in. It used to be thought disrespectful to do that.

Women get harassed whatever they're wearing. Girls in school uniform get unwanted attention.

I've found the best way to avoid attention is to have a child. If you're going about with young children, somehow most men seem to view you as being in a different box, whether you're wearing. But I disagree that conservative clothes necessarily protect women and girls from harassing behaviour.

I think it's something people need to be aware of, the more skin you expose the more attention you attract and not all attention is good, some males are dodgy and you don't want to attract their attention.

I'm all for people dressing as they wish but when doing so it's worth knowing there can be a downside. Of course girls and women should be able to wear whatever they like, but we do live in a world where females get sexually harassed, assaulted or raped. Some boys/men are violent.

I think if she doesn’t get it already 21 is way too late to start having the conversation. I have a DD the same age and had conversations with her from quite young talking about having respect for herself rather than using the word modesty but it was partly that.

People judge you on how you dress so it is important to be aware of the impression you are giving so that you are making an informed decision.

If you wander round Soho in the evening you will see plenty of men dressed ‘immodestly’. They are there for a night out and give the strong impression that they want to attract other men. If they showed up at the office looking like that then it would be tricky to take them seriously. I think the same applies to women.

I hate the word ‘modest’ though.

None of our decisions about what we wear are made in a vacuum. Sometimes the influences are overt, strict, imposed though that of violence or social censure. Other times, it’s more subtle or less obvious.

but it’s absolute nonsense to claim that girls choose to dress as they do ‘for themselves’ - whether it’s modestly or otherwise.

I think modesty in clothing is different than modest as a characteristic.