Nurseries for 12 week-old babies - ok or not?

[weatherthestorm]

Inspired by the current boarding school thread ... Now that there is widespread awareness of 'boarding school syndrome', are we not, as a society, in danger of sleepwalking into raising a generation whose mental well-being is going to be impacted by even earlier separation into a form of institutional care? Will the next generation be defined by 'childcare syndrome', alongside and exacerbating the mental health epidemic that is already emerging through unlimited access to social media content? Will we look back in disbelief that we ever thought it was ok to put babies, as young as 12 weeks into long days in nurseries, where they spend most of their waking lives before they even have any concept of themselves as a whole, separate being? AIBU that we need to lose the taboo / discomfort around engaging with this important issue, before it's too late?

I wanted this thread to be a wider discussion about systemic change, rather than individuals. You don't need to be a child psychologist to understand that, while kids in nursery at 12 weeks may be necessary, or convenient, or part of a longer-term strategy for the parents, it is dimply not ideal for the baby (barring obvious circumstances such as parental illness or an unsafe home environment). 'Good enough' parenting is always going to be better for a young baby than institutional care. Being in a home environment with the familiar sounds and voices he/ she would have been hearing inside the womb, is obviously to be less stressful for a tiny baby. All they have as coping mechanisms against a sense of disintegration is familiar smells, sounds, etc. At 12 weeks they have no object- permanence, it's still the paranoid-schozoid phase - they haven't even developed an awareness of themselves as a whole entity, or as separate to the mother. All of this has been well-known for decades. Yes babies will survive, what choice do they have? If childcare is all they know by the age of 1 or 2, then that's all they know. It's not about future prognosis or how they will 'turn out.' It's about what's best there and then - from the BABY'S perspective. Not the government who wants everyone out working to pay tax. Not the company who wants parents to feel they can't take longer than x weeks for fear of losing their jobs.

The whole political and economic ethos needs to shift to recognise that most people will have kids at some point in their lives - it's a basic fact of life - and companies need to imbed this at a strategic level - not only for mums but for dads too. It shouldn't be 'either /or' to the extent it is today. Yes this might all sound like hopeless idealism, but lots if things we take for granted today would have seemed impossible at one point. I do think we're going to look back at this point in history and say "can you believe parents had to work all day with no shared parental leave and they paid thousands to have their babies in childcare 8-6 because they felt they had choice and this was considered normal back then,' Or 'can you believe children used to have unlimited internet access from as soon as they could get on a phone.' I know these are separate issues but I just think, in the not distant future, people will think WTF were we doing?

I don’t dispute it would be optimal at that specific point in time for a baby to be with their parents for that time (& actually past that time and up to when they are around 2. That’s what currently available research on the topic says).

I do dispute that it’s the best long term solution for every family for a parent to take that time off work and I think looking at the long term is an important factor in choosing when to return to work after having a baby.

Does that help?

But I think this is the OP's point (but once again a thread has descended into a SAHM and/or working mum mud slinging): we need to discuss these issues - like why are older women invisible inc. in the workplace? It shouldn't be the case that key career advances only really tend to occur at a certain point. They should be just as common in the forties, for instance. In my profession, women leave most in the thirties age bracket. I wonder why......

I don't disagree with you (I also had a big promotion just before the point I always planned to start my family) but your comment about career advancement at a certain point is pertinent to what the OP was getting at.

I'm going to bow out of this thread as some posters seem to have descended into some rather personal attacks on another mother's choices because they don't align with their view.

I will just add a couple more things before I go however.

I still haven't heard from anyone what rigorous studies at a population level indicate that paid childcare for young children is damaging. Anything I have seen is very weak and certainly doesn't point to vastly different outcomes either way.

I would really like some to think outside the UK bubble and appreciate that other societies have a different approach and it hasn't led to the collapse of society with generations of adults with attachment disorders.

The final point is that it is an old trope that "It takes a village" and certainly historically there were a large number of adults who all played a part in the care of young babies. It is only fairly recently that there has been an expectation that the mother should be the single caregiver and again I am not sure that there is strong evidence that sharing caregiving responsibilities among several caring adults is damaging to a child.

Putting a child in nursery or with a childminder does not mean that you lose all time with your child and there is plenty of time where you can build those bonds with your child especially during those looong night time feeds! 😉

I would really like people on this thread to remember this site is about supporting parents and not demonising their choices and making out there is only one way to parent a child. I would have thought even a cursory glance at these boards would show that there is a huge array of approaches and philosophies and that truly the vast majority of parents are doing the best they can for their child with the choices that suit their child and their family. Those that couldn't care less wouldn't even bother posting on here.

People often complain that their MIL or others don't accept their take on parenting - I don't know why some posters can't accept that other parents don't think the way that they do, make different choices when it comes to their child and that is OK.

But you have made a lot of assumptions. And your opinion is obvious. I was a better mother by going out to work. Shoot me.

It’s about priorities and choices. You make choices for your baby when they are tiny or you make choices for you when your baby is tiny. Depends on what you can live with and the justifications you tell yourself. Depends on what kind of parent you are and whose needs (or wants) you put first.

People struggle with the nuance. There is a way of doing it that may be best for the child, if everything else is right (eg parents are financially stable, no mental health issues etc). But the optimum may, for many reasons, not be possible.

All I’m saying is that as a society we should be trying to take away as many of those things that get in the way as we can and certainly not coming up with new ones.

But that's my point. Among those I knew, no one put babies in all day every day. I know many people who put babies in, but all were for very short hours

We have seen on here by posters that it is in fact all day every day as both parents work full time and decide not to take maternity leave.

Nope, sorry. Martyring does not make good parenting. I was a far better parent for being able to keep my professional identity

Nine months maternity leave is relatively new. My DT’s haven’t suffered from when it was six months. Many other countries have less, my DSis only got four months.

I too was a better mother going out to work.

I know that if I had to live my life again I’d make the same choices in a lot of things. In the short term, like when I went back to work on DD1, I did not want to do that but in the long term it is had paid huge dividends to my children’s overall quality of life. We have a very comfortable life with typically one parent on hand at all times because of working from home which we were able to put in place before the pandemic. We had flexibility thanks to my husband running his own business and I get an awful lot of paid holidays so over the course of their life I spent a tonne of time with my children. We have both been lucky to get be able to get to volunteer at their hobbies - girl guiding/ sports with them and have been able to be at a time when parents are far more emotionally engaged with their children than previous generations were.

Where I do agree with the OP is aspirational to would like each parent to get a year off each with children ML and PL. I think that would be better.

I'm not saying it 's never done. In my experience, however, it's very rare

@manifestthis triggered much? I can't imagine getting this worked up on a Tuesday morning 😂

I was also a better parent when I went back to work. My career is important to me, but actually my mental health also improved DRAMATICALLY. DS had an amazing bond with his key worker at nursery, and also one at home with me. He's very well adjusted and always has been IMO. Best decision I made for us, and I'm glad I never listened to the judgement I got at the time.

I managed to bond with my baby just fine without taking a whole 9 months, thanks

If i could wave a magic wand and have any system I wanted then to me the optimal one would be everyone (parent or not) being able to earn enough to afford to live reasonably comfortably on a 3-4 day week.
It would allow for the village type approach where I work Monday-Tuesday and Thursday-Friday, husband Wednesday to Friday and then we only need help with childcare Thursday/Friday and we can potentially share with a close friend or relative that also has kids or use paid childcare. Pre kids, post kids and for the child free it would allow more time for leisure/exercise/being able to eat healthily etc.
Longer maternity leave on 90% pay and equivalent paternity would make a huge difference. Ability for people to afford to live close to where they work to reduce commutes & shorter normal working days would also be helpful.

Unfortunately some things will be much harder to adjust for. You can’t change the fact that there is an age bracket where energy for the job and experience optimally overlap & that tends to be where career progression is fastest. It coincides with the age bracket most people have kids. You also can’t change the fact that some industries change very quickly and that your expertise can be eroded a great deal if you are away 6-12 months.

As long as you are ok that’s fine then. Not surprised you got judgement from others at the time though..

I’m sure you did, just not on weekdays.

It not rare at all. Most parent work full time. I worked in childcare and the cast majority worked full time.

You are quite right op absolutely anything can be turned into a stick to beat mothers with. It's impossible to avoid being judged and found wanting by someone, no matter what you do.

Lots of women don't have the cushion of a decent maternity pay package and supportive partner and there is no decision they can make which won't get them vilified by someone.

Don't forget all the kids who didn't get sent to nursery at all due to covid. They have a syndrome too.

I'd need to check the Stately Homes thread to find out what the official name is for the syndrome suffered by children brought up by perfectionist judgemental types who spend their time criticising everyone else's parenting decisions and can't conceive of the idea that everyone is just doing their best in an imperfect world, and that their own parenting might not actually be perfect either.

These are very spiteful posts @manifestthis. You are clearly very triggered by these conversations and you are projecting the rules you live by onto other women. Your rules are absolutely fine for you and I’m sure you are doing a great job as a mother but there is no gospel according to @manifestthis for the rest of us. It is very controlling of you to think that the rest of us have to live life in accordance with your doctrine.

I regret putting my DC in nursery at one year of age. It was just the done thing, but it isn't right. He was only in for two days but I think it was too young.

At 12 weeks, it's really awful. We should invest in maternity care so that nobody is forced to do this.

The OP asked for opinions on putting 12 week old babies in full time care. Those who don’t agree are giving their opinions on why they think it is wrong and those who have done it are giving their reasons why they think it’s ok.

You are making personal spiteful comments to a poster about not bonding with her child during the week. You are making ad hominem attacks not discussing the issue.