To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

"Women are appalled, discussing it all, having heated arguments, but how many men have stopped and noticed."

They haven't noticed. They don't care; it doesn't affect them. My own DH knew nothing about this atrocity (even though he watched last night's news with me), so I told him all about it. He made the "right" noises - just as I would expect him to - and then pondered "how could she not have known?" 🙄 (And honestly, if you met him you'd think he's a nice bloke.)
This is what we're up against: even the men who wouldn't abuse women and children, don't really care about it when it happens. It simply doesn't touch them.

sigh

This is what I think my husband will do when I tell him tonight. I'll report back

It's exhausting and dispiriting isn't it.

My partner's response to this French case was 'it's an embarrassment to be a man today'. He did not NAMALT and he doesn't think it was 'humanity' He is not quite as angry as I am, but he understands my fury.

But he's also the guy to 'fact check' me on something I had undertaken to research for us (household insurance) and is smarting that I called him out on it.

It's a long old road.

Yes, I was just about to report likewise to your previous post. Good luck! 🤞😊

Sorry, I meant "respond", not "report". 🙄

Yes - interesting that it doesn't mention the other half of the parenting dyad.

Arguably the father's contribution could be even more important here. Fathers should be embracing the kind of manhood which serves as a positive model to their sons, rather than the usual toxic masculine stereotypes who sadly generate numerous complaints on this very site.

Sons would then learn by example through not hearing casual sexism in the home or witnessing their mothers treated with contempt or violence, that they do their share of the household tasks, and that women are not support vessels or maidservants who exist to deal with all the household and life admin, pick up their shit and do all the 'wife work' until kingdom come.

Yet the onus is on mothers to bring up their sons 'correctly', because as ever, everything is fully our responsibility.

I don’t really know what this kind of thread hopes to achieve.

The reality is that appalling human on human abuse (yes, with mainly but not exclusively men the perpetrators) is going on all the time all over the world.

Sometimes a case liked this hits the headlines and shocks people, mainly because it happens not too far from home and it is egregiously disgusting. Of course, the internet massively amplifies distrust and dislike of men if that is already your view, as the ‘news’ social media feeds you just enhances existing beliefs rather than challenging them. (The converse of course is a part of this problem, rabid misogynists get fed disgustingly woman-hating news).

And there are a bunch of things that we could and should be discussing and doing about it, in schools, law enforcement and regulation of the internet.

But few seem to want to discuss these, because they involve all of society, not just men.

Men are really not a ‘class’ in the sense of any other class analysis as we need the opposite sex to reproduce and the vast majority of humans choose to live with members of the opposite sex.

Well you’ve obviously completely missed the point many posters are making; this is a case where MEN raped an unconscious woman and saw no problem with it - do you honestly believe there’s ever been a situation where 70 women have gone to a man’s house, at the request of his wife, and sexually assaulted him while he slept?

The problem IS men and to suggest that woman commit similar crimes, at the same rate, is quite frankly, disingenuous.

You’ve been shown as much empathy as you’ve shown to the victim this thread is about.

Go start your own thread rather than trying to derail this one, you won’t though, because people like you only start moaning about women on threads about men, it doesn’t seem to bother you the rest of the time, funny that.

I agree, also pretty disingenuous to suggest internet-fueled misandry is in any way level with misogyny. Not sure who the female equivalent of Andrew Tate is tbh.

But few seem to want to discuss these, because they involve all of society, not just men.

@Newbutoldfather I don't know about you but I have over the last few years:

Given money to Rape Crisis, and other women's causes
Housed homeless mums in my house (I think 7 in total)
Worked in housing and advocacy to try to help people (many of whom are single mums fleeing violence)
Volunteered in youth offending
Raised money for various causes

Just because you don't discuss anything, let alone do anything, doesn't mean the rest of us don't. If you don't like the thread, there are others. There are other websites if you get sick of telling women how to think.

My experience of men's services is that the hard social work is done by women. In prisons, counselling, homelessness, housing, educations, nursing, social work and other and on. We are pulling our weight in this crisis. You aren't. Men aren't. Why don't you log out of MN and donate some cash to Women's Aid, there's a love.

Does he not think he should? Or is he too scared to, or fears being ostracised?

Yes, its men. sorry 😥

In the interests of accuracy, the Sexual Offences Act 2003 changed that. You can now only be charged with rape if it was committed with a penis. Women can be charged with sexual assault - and this can carry a sentence equivalent to a rape - but rape can only be 'achieved' with apenis.

But few seem to want to discuss these, because they involve all of society, not just men.

Stop grinding your one axe. The word you are looking for is 'patriarchy'.

Of course these are the whole of society's problems. We live in a patriarchy. That's the root of the problem for men and for women.

You are breathtakingly arrogant to lecture like this in trite generalisations. 'The thread' doesn't 'hope to achieve anything'. It is a mixture of voices, each with their own nuanced agendas.

Fathers, yes. And schools. And governments. And religious leaders, inasmuch as we have to put up with them existing.

It is almost universal that people (of both sexes) are inconsistent; we may all be kind on a Monday and unkind on a Tuesday. Or lovely to one person and a shit to another. Most of the Nazi camp guards went home in the evening after a day of murdering people and were, no doubt, lovely to their own children.

One of the many terrifying things about this case was that this guy was doing this to his own wife, with whom he seemingly had a loving, decades-long relationship. And at least one of the rapists knew her (was a neighbour). Is this not strong evidence that this crime is about power? They could look at her, chat to her in everyday life, knowing what they had done and that she was oblivious

How do we cope with that dissonance? I have no idea; it blows my mind. It means that women can't trust any man, even the ones they know and love. I don't know how women can live with that and I don't know how the men who aren't like that can live with it either. But men acknowledging reality and listening to women would be a good place to start

Some men are actually getting shit done rather than berating women on the internet, you could try that.

These men are providing outreach to try to reduce street violence. You could send them a donation.

https://www.gangsunitecic.org.uk/streetfathers

Vanessa Frake (former prison governor) reports that approx 80% of men in prison are barely literate. You could volunteer as a reading coach. A friend is currently supporting a male reader because there is not a man available to do it. Readers are usually matched with a coach of the same sex.

https://alt.org.uk/

I think I am a bit naive. There are men on MN posing as women, aren't there? I honestly didn't realise until today after a bit of ASing on certain posters.

Sorry, I am replying to the post you are replying to and agreeing with you, not replying to you - I'm a bit confused. I'm agreeing with you.

This is a forum, not the world government. You have to define a problem before you can start to deal with it. You are just derailing the process by suggesting one can't complain about something without having a full answer to it.

Have you read my other posts?

I would never suggest that!

Ah sorry. I get you.

Yes I made a mistake - I was replying to the post you quoted.

Hear hear 👏👏👏👏👏