To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

Yes, that IS interesting! My DH would never do that (or even say it) as in 44 years of knowing him I've never seen him be aggressive in any way (action or language), but that isn't meant to be a criticism of your DH's reaction as I don't like my DH's reaction any better than your DH's - neither apathy or aggression are the right responses from men to this atrocity (sadly, my DH is apathetic about too much for my liking). I think what we'd all like is for our DHs to show interest, curiosity and thought about what THEY can do to help put a stop to this epidemic. I think what we really want is for them to step up and challenge other men's behaviour and not just brush it under the carpet because they don't want to cause a scene - because when they do this, they're part of the problem. Challenging bad behaviour should become the norm, not the exception.

Yes. I hope she knows there are thousands, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands, of woman saluting her courage.

YOU are banging on about NAMALT. Do you even know what it means?

Why do you expect women to endlessly show kindness and support to men when every day we read stories of men violently attacking women, we see porn saturated with men choking and hurting women so clearly many of you get off on womens pain, which is fucking sick? Little girls get attacked and men make it all about themselves, destroying towns in some racist little violent tantrum. Do you think we’re not human beings with our own feelings, but just support bots for males? I’m out of empathy for men in general, it’s your move mate, if men want there to be less division, they can start by sorting their shit out.

Not humans. Men.

I am just questioning the utility of saying men are a problem when I think part of the problem is the increasing polarisation of the sexes that I observe.

Men and their violence are the fucking problem and you have the temerity to post on a predominantly female website telling us that our basic pattern recognition skills have no utility? FFS

Rules of misogyny.

1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad. 11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men. 12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry. 13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves. 14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent. 15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others. 16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

But the vast majority of knife crime IS committed by men. The vast majority of terrorists are men. It’s not just white men, it’s men the world over,

MrsTerry, thank you.

My 'candle' is to quote a pp from another thread, which was about 'why men hate us'.

*Imagine you did all that to another human being. If it wasn't their own fault, you'd be the baddie. So you have to believe women are awful nasty scheming bitches to justify your treatment of them.

Men aren't horrible to women because they hate them. Men (well, enough of them to cause endless damage) hate women because they're horrible to them.*

This perspective, perhaps counterintuitively, makes me feel less angry with Nigels and their gang, the ones people mean when they NAMALT.

If we can show Nigels and their mums etc how they are being tricked into condoning abuse, surely there is least there is a chance we can work together to beat misogyny. We must keep on explaining why 'mothers' and 'feminism' are not to blame. We need to keep holding men to high standards. All of us need to, including the Nigels.

I just can't my head around it. I read about it today. His WIFE and DAUGHTER. The lack of any kind of thought for them, people he was meant to love, and how many other crimes he must have committed in his 70 or so years. It said he got caught taking photos of women up their skirts... and all this got discovered. I don't know how these women will ever get over the violation. It's so sick.

Reading this was really interesting. I dated a man once who obviously just hated women or had a low opinion of them. If they dressed at all showing any skin they were "sluts" and if they were covered they were "boring bitches". It only lasted a couple of months before I realised how bad it was. He judged every woman in every scenario - television, walking down the street, whatever.

What makes them like that?

I later found out his mother left the father when he was about 11-12 because the father was an alcoholic. She left the two sons with the Dad. I don't know any more detail than that but thought it probably has something to do with it. It was so strange because he could be charming and tactile / affectionate but it was obvious after a while his general opinion of women was very low.

But animals are a totally different. What animals are you referring to specifically? Because most of them only have sex to procreate.

Surely most animals perform "disgusting things" in order to eat (ie kill other animals) or procreate. This "man" is not in the same group.

Agreed. It's a tedious straw man and it's been done to death.

The argument was never 'all men are like that'.

If they dressed at all showing any skin they were "sluts" and if they were covered they were "boring bitches"

@VapeVamp12 the man who tried to lock me in a room and assault me when I was an underage teenager called me a 'frigid slut'. I still remember those words. Stupid oxymoronic arsehole.

Larping seems to be quite the thing these days, unfortunately.

I am furious on your behalf.

The ones with the Madonna/whore brains are particularly hateful. I hate their actions, obviously, but I separately despise their critical thinking skills.

I guess this is why men tend to reject the idea of people with XY chromosomes being a 'class'. They'd have to look more closely and recognise their generational power. And that would mean fewer perks or owning up to being areseholes.

This is so true. Due to the things that have happened to me in my life at the (literal) hands of men including two family members I am very wary of them. I have a mistrust of them in general although the ones I personally know are decent people. I do not have any desire to post vile things about men, to stalk them online, make foul comments at them when I pass them in the street or to attack then in revenge for the things that have been done to me. I am cautious and will only trust them when they have proved they can be trusted.

Just another day. Just another report. But you know- women pointing out that when depravity happens against women and girls and children it's done by a man are being castigated for - well- whatever.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13820483/woman-poland-josef-fritzl-cruel-experiments.html

They'd have to look more closely and recognise their generational power. And that would mean fewer perks or owning up to being areseholes.

This is the crux of the issue @Benvolio. Not all men are rapists or abusers but all men benefit from women fearing men. Especially the nice guys.

That is why they are loathe to challenge the perpetrators. They’d have to give up the easy ride that is the automatic entitlement that comes with having a penis in a patriarchal society. The henchmen and handmaidens who enforce the rules and shout ‘not all men’ do the leg work for them whilst they sit on the fence and say ‘I’m not doing anything to you’.

I was reminded today of this case. It happened close by the home of an elderly relative of mine.

The perpetrator is now free. The victim's family were not originally informed that their murdered mother/grandmother had originally been raped because an agreement was made with the teenager's defence team so that he could plead guilty to murder without it being made known that he'd also raped the octogenarian.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/horrified-family-murdered-pensioner-learns-10060470

What good does it do to make it a man vs woman thing? That might make you feel better but it solves no problems.

The poster was right first time round, it is a societal issue. For two reasons:
(a) men's brains and women's brains are pretty much the same and therefore the differences in adult male and adult female behaviour are almost certainly going to be as a result of environmental conditioning and the point of focus should be what we should do to change this and (b) this is unlikely to be an isolated case, and if so this is connected with:

• the increase of the darknet and the increase in abominable content on darknet and porn is highly addictive and seems to change people's brains making many people more and more likely to engage with heinous acts seen time after time, and this is connected with the next point:
• lowered education standards and children are not only being failed by education but also being brought up on a diet of violent video games and porn, porn which is accessed by younger and younger children and nothing being done about it, and the fact that children and young people are not being brought up with a moral compas and the fact that young children are being taught about inappropriate things and exposed to inappropriate material and so becoming highly desenstised and hence becoming traumatised and dangerous
• proper parenting being unfashionable and seen as helicoptering and hands off parenting being more fashionable and more and more teens becoming out of control and on to wrong trajectories

And various other things, and all of this has steadily become worse and worse over the last few decades. It was foreseeable that this sort of thing would be the result. The husband himself is educated and wealthy and so clearly a t. f. sociopath. The 71 or so men recruited? A no shit sherlock moment.

The same reasons apply to why the RW riots happened recently in the UK. There has been a steady erosion of anything principled or civilised or moral or respectful or kind in how we bring up children. People are easy to manipulate towards extreme ideology and behaviour if they are (a) badly educated and (b) have unresolved trauma. We have created a nation of such people.

Men are perpetrators more than women at the moment, because men are brought up differently from women, the influences all around them from many (not all) older males, the posts on MN "I really want a girl" showing an insane attitude which leads to disenfrachisement

So, what can we do about it.

Oh my gosh! I was also called that as a teenager, absolute moron 🙄

Thank you. About to say the same thing.

My father told me that being raped served me right because I was a slut.

In the next breath he told me he didn't believe me anyway.

Well, which was it to be, daddio? Odd how these misogynists' hatred of women is so rampant that they can't even come up with a cogent, rational position as to why we women deserve everything we get at their hands. They think in contradictory opposites, as borne out by the experiences of another PP upthread. 'Frigid slut', ffs. What's the score, to ensure they have all the bases covered?

Yes, some of these men are our fathers and other male relatives. Mine was a psychopath. Oxy-morons, indeed.

Why are there people on this thread scrabbling around for violent acts perpetrated by women- when in the the last MONTH we can list:-
woman raped by 70 men; woman doused in petrol by boyfriend; male terrorists planning to slash and bomb multiple young women at TS concert; male school shooter in Georgia and 3 young angels knifed by a man and killed in a safe space…. SERIOUSLY… and those are crimes etched in brain and I haven’t had to google them.