To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

Agreed. If someone does hate men they are quite entitled to say so. I can put up with a little hurtfulness. I don't see the fact that some women have come to hate men actually impedes doing something about male violence. Perhaps it just emphasises the need to do so.

When women hate men they usually avoid them, when men hate women they usually physically hurt them. I think that is the main difference. I wouldn't mind men hating women if they'd only leave us all alone.

Yes, sorry. We're good 😊

My DH, just informed of this, tried to find it on the BBC site. I said, "terrible story about violence towards women" He said, "is it the poor runner?" "no DH another one". He eventually Googled it, having not found it on the BBC (women-hating fuckers) and said, "fuck, I would have wanted to go in there with a gun and shoot the lot of them".

I mean, not minimising, not blaming women, immediately believing are all good. But the irony of thinking male violence stops male violence is interesting.

@FOJN and @MrsTerryPratchett ,

I actually do bits and pieces in various ways.

Totally coincidentally I did make a donation to Rape Crisis yesterday (due to a friend doing a sponsored event).

More significantly I taught science at secondary for over 10 years. This included pastoral responsibility and teaching about consent etc,

I also passionately tried (and succeeded in a modest way) to get more girls to study A level Physics and to go on to study STEM subjects at uni. I put a lot of time and thought (unpaid) into this. I do think any effort that brings boys and girls together as equals is a good thing for society,

However, schools have a massive problem driven by the internet and reinforcement algorithms, which are so dangerous. Girls and boys are getting increasingly polarised in many many ways. Girls think of boys as ‘smelly’ and chaotic, and boys think of girls as sexual objects (obviously I am massively generalising). The language has changed in a negative way too with ‘smashing’ being used a lot (‘smash’ or ‘pass’) and a lot of talk about doing things TO people rather than WITH them. This just wasn’t the case pre internet.

But it is a problem. Schools do try to address it, but I am not sure they are going about it the right way, especially with boys. What they generally do is take them away separately and talk about toxic masculinity. But, the boys just feel wounded and insulted and are drawn to the likes of Andrew Tate. I have very rarely spoken to a boy after one of these talks and seen him persuaded.

The above is why we need to have a proper conversation about this as a society and, as good role models of both sexes, we need to work together as equals, rather than just saying that men are a ‘problem’.

But, the boys just feel wounded and insulted and are drawn to the likes of Andrew Tate.

Women are to blame for AT? I shall refrain from answering in case I get banned.

I think I am a bit naive. There are men on MN posing as women, aren't there? I honestly didn't realise until today after a bit of ASing on certain posters.

Across the site there are both men who are clear that they are men, and men posing as women. Some men seem to find it quite entertaining to pretend to be women.

@MrsTerryPratchett ,

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlrpzwdkzeo

Your husband needs a googling course! It took me 2 seconds.

The BBC are antisemitic for sure, especially one individual whom I detest, but not misogynistic.

Another unimaginably horrific case of male violence against a woman.

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/inthee_news/5159394-woman-tortured-for-years-in-poland

@MrsTerryPratchett ,

‘Women are to blame for AT? I shall refrain from answering in case I get banned.’

Umm, who said that? Not me! All I implied is hammering boys over the head with a message isn’t the way to change their mind.

Probably a good idea to refrain as we will both end up banned.

The BBC are antisemitic for sure, especially one individual whom I detest, but not misogynistic.

Well, as a woman, I disagree.

I wouldn't engage with this poster. He accused me of hating men on another post where he proceeded to tell us that we were all parenting wrong if we we complained about untidy teenagers and this his teenage boys were able to tidy in readiness for the female cleaner to come round.

He also insists you're obsessed with hum if you reply more than twice.

Posters like him make me wish mumsnet had a block button.

This a forum. It is place for saying that "men are a 'problem'". Criticising people on a forum for "just" saying that is unreasonable. Clearly IRL we should be doing something about it as well, but you seem to question the right of people to say it is a problem, without presenting credentials as to what they have done. Perhaps you are expressing yourself badly.

I shall also take your wise advice.

Men are really not a ‘class’ in the sense of any other class analysis as we need the opposite sex to reproduce and the vast majority of humans choose to live with members of the opposite sex.

I'm not sure where the hair-splitting over the term sex class comes from (unless, yet again, it's to derail the thread). They're a socio-economic class in the sense that they outearn women, mostly outrank them in the workplace having taken on the vast majority of senior and executive roles, and the people who hold the purse strings generally hold the power.

If you prefer, think of them as a demographic. They are certainly a distinct category of humans from women, and the one overwhelmingly responsible for sexual crimes perpetrated against that other category, not least violent and occasionally sexual crimes against each other.

It seems that whichever way you slice it, men are the problem.

😂

or should that be 😪

@Newbutoldfather

You may think few people are tackling this issue because neither your nor your peers are doing anything worth a damn, but many women I know are and the stumbling block they hit time after time are men like you.

Men who would much rather condescend to women on a forum that you, a good guy get it, but still not all men. Let’s tone the anti man rhetoric down.

That the onus is on others to address but not you, good guy, because giving us your wisdom on how lacking we are in solving the problem is plenty enough help.

As I said in a previous post, the biggest enemy to solving the societal issue of violence against women is not women, it’s not the abusers, it’s the nice guys in the middle who would rather pontificate and derail in a bid to uphold their self certification as nice guys than actually weigh in on the side of women in a meaningful proactive way.

Until that changes, yes, all men as far as I am concerned, until you’ve earned the benefit of the doubt.

@TriesNotToBeCynical ,

Maybe I am expressing myself badly and I am a firm believer in free speech. I am not trying to in any way censor anyone (and nor could I).

I am just questioning the utility of saying men are a problem when I think part of the problem is the increasing polarisation of the sexes that I observe.

I just don’t think that talking about men being a ‘problem’ will reduce the number of problem men. Clearly not a popular view here, but a perfectly valid one, nonetheless.

You forget that you taught your sons to tidy their rooms in readiness for a female cleaner to come in and how other women should parent better to avoid untidy teen rooms.

Men are the problem, including you.

Based on his previous track record, he will do about 3 or 4 posts before turning and blaming women. His mask soon slips

Since the thread is nearly at 1000, and I have to be off, and I want to light a bloody candle, I want to refocus my thoughts on Gisele. Brave, stoic, self-sacrificing Gisele. Who chose to open herself up to the awful nonsense like we've seen on this thread to protect other women. And a thought for her daughter, and all the other women abused as well.

"Nothing bothers me," she tells the judge. Thank you Gisele for standing up for all of us.

She's an incredible woman for sure.

ok, you have made yourself clear. You think that feminism is part of the problem, and if only women and girls weren't so nasty and disrespectful to boys and men then men and boys wouldn't feel so motivated to correct them. I think your position laughable. But, as you say, you are entitled to express it; couldn't you find a better place to express it? Andrew Tate's twitter account perhaps?

Medal is in the post hun.

This is a thread about a woman whose husband drugged her so he could watch 10's of men rape her but yeah let's talk about how women are to blame for AT and how girls being mean to boys hurts their feelings.

I fucking hope you don't have daughters.

Of course those 70 odd men are the problem - no-one has suggested they are not. But it's just pointless banging on about NAMALT because obviously they aren't, just as all black people do not commit knife crime and all muslims do not commit terrorism attacks and it would be obscene to suggest otherwise. Men are capable of great good as well as great evil and they are necessary. We need a sensible discussion how to harvest the good and minimise the bad, not people angrily attacking other women because they dare to suggest that they object to this blanket vilification. I'm sure we all agree (the facts tell us in fact) that overwhelmingly, violent crimes are committed by men but the debate should address why and what to do about it, not NAMALT.