To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

Thank you. I am not going to look into it more, but the name of the chat room could mean so many things in my mind e.g. men looking to have affairs, other situations where (mostly men) don't want a woman to find out. I cannot wrap my head round there not being a single one of them who spoke out. Whether they participated or not, every one of them is guilty of collusion to let this happen. And there must be many more than 80.

Given how often MNers stumble across their partners bloody awful search histories, it is so disturbing that no one saw this. I am very much not blaming them, rather that I am shocked that opportunities to stop this happening were probably missed along the way. I don't have the words to describe my feelings.

"Humans are bad. There I said it again".

The most inane thing written on this whole thread.

I know - given this is the person that started the thread, you’d think they’d be posting something slightly more interesting

If all humans are bad as each other I really don't think this is the case to illustrate it. 70+ men are accused of a horrific crime. The woman at the centre of it is waiving her anonymity in the hope of helping other women.

You need to find a different case to prove "women are just as bad".

This. It's quite callous.

Just in this case alone for every woman youve named there have been 26 men.
In ONE case, and you're "astonished" about womens "anti-male" sentiment.

Pathetic.

Agree with all you’ve said here.

My DS is totally incapable of behaving in this way. He is loving and kind.

Everyone thinks this.
That’s the problem.
Everyone thinks the men in their lives are the decent one’s.
That also keeps this cycle going.

I'm presuming you're a woman and find your defence of men pretty toxic, along with you refusing to acknowledge that the only women involved in the case you started this thread about, was indeed the women being gang rapaed by a group of 70 men. I find it even more toxic that you have the audacity to try and liken women to men in their actions.

I find it toxic that you care so little you couldn't even be disgusted that a man could do this.

If you're a man, you've behaved exactly how I expected.

Either way, you need to do better.

Men only really care about their dick. They will tear apart their family, rape and kill to satisfy their desires. Many will manage to maintain a facade of decency most of the time, but they still care about their dick more than anything else.

What do you think of the Met police statistics above which suggest that about 14% of men are guilty of reported violence against women? When you add in unreported violence and violence against other men that would seem to imply that 14% is the very minimum figure. Doesn't really fit with the "tiny minority" narrative?

Yes absolutely. It does however make their arguments quite compelling - even if you know everything about it is abhorrent.

Yes humans are quite bad. There is a lot financial crime. Road accidents are big problem. Epidemics are a problem. In some places Bengal Tigers or elephants are a big problem.

In this world we make progress by studying particular parts of a generally problem-ridden world. Einstein didn't develop physics by watching how beans grow, which is actually just as interesting to some people. Male entitlement, pride and violence is a particular problem and at the heart of the case you originally raised.

We make progress with male violence by studying male violence and what we can do about it, and not drifting off into misery about the general state of the world.

And I for one think that how men are brought up to behave and think is a problem that deserves specific attention and effort. That doesn't stop us also working on other problems.

1% is a massive underestimate. 1% of men is around the estimate of men who are pedophiles. That number is dwarfed by rapists, men who are violent to their partners and plain old violent men in general. The Met thinks it's 1 in 7 men who are dangerous to women. Since we know men are more dangerous to other men, that number is much bigger.

PP calculated that around 4% of the adult men in the town the victim of the rape lived in raped her. And that's just the men we know about who wanted to rape an unconscious stranger woman. Many more would be raping their wives, girlfriends and other women.

Do you have one iota of understanding of what that's like for women? You want to start dating but 1 in 7 of the men you look at on the dating app will hurt you. 4% want to rape you. 1% want to rape your chid. And they are mostly bigger than you, much stronger than you, and have more resources. Can you imagine a world like that for yourself?

And BTW the OP very clearly started this thread in bad faith and I'm reporting him or her. Truly despicable. Almost unbelievable that someone would use the victim of this crime as fodder for an MRA agenda.

1% of men is around the estimate of men who are pedophiles

An anonymous Australian study shows that 1 in 6 men have sexual urges for children, so the number is likely much higher.

Then there was the anonymous uni study that showed that half of participating men admitted they’d rape if no one would find out.

@MrsTerryPratchett fine to report the OP but personally I want this thread to stand. MVAWG is one of the most urgent issues of our day. This discussion and the different arguments and perspectives being discussed here ought not be swept under the carpet and erased from our view.

They'll stop at nothing to blame women for absolutely bloody everything. Even acts we are physically incapable of committing under UK law.

I feel for anyone who has found themselves a victim of sexual assault, not excluding the poster who suffered this fate at the hands of a female. For the safeguarding of children it's dangerous to pretend this is an impossible scenario which never happens. Of course, anything is possible and some women do sexually offend (they cannot rape, and if convicted by proxy they need a man to commit this offence). If this is an issue people feel is hidden, underreported and more widespread than current evidence and statistics suggest, then it would be productive and helpful to have a discussion about this elsewhere.

Every current indication, however, is that this situation is an outlier. I've never been groped, heckled, catcalled, had salacious comments made to me, stalked, sexually harrassed, been rubbed up against, followed home, raped individually, or gang raped, by a woman. Ever. I've suffered all the above and more, some of them on more than one occasion, at the hands of men. And nearly every woman you meet can tell a similar story. The statistics overwhelmingly show that men are the vast, vast majority perpetrators of such crimes.

I don't fear women following me down the street. I don't risk-assess when I'm in a space designated for females only (that, however, is changing now that a way has been found of encroaching on these, too).

There is simply no escape from it. I don't want to inflict harm on men at all - that is the fundamental difference between their sex and my own. I merely want to go about my day unencumbered, unmolested, without the need to avoid walking in the woods alone or look constantly over my shoulder. Is that so much to ask?

Seemingly so. Men are just fucking incapable of leaving women alone.

100% this. I'll add to the list - look what's happening in Afghanistan.

It's men. It's always men.

@TriesNotToBeCynical
We make progress with male violence by studying male violence and what we can do about it, and not drifting off into misery about the general state of the world.

I think you make an excellent point. It would be great for all of society now to ask why was it so easy for this disgusting man to find at least 70 other disgusting men who would participate in raping a drugged and unconscious woman. It completely blows my mind that that amount of men would participate and presumably enjoy this sick act.

I also can't get my head around some of the defense arguments. I understand an accused person has to offer a defense but are these men really making the argument, in this day and age that the husband had consented to multiple men violating his unconscious wife's body so it must be ok? Or that the lady knew what what would be happening beforehand so that's also ok?

I want to say any decent man would instinctively know that this was not ok but I'm really starting to wonder what men would do to us if they really thought they would get away with it.

That's a really useful graphic.

Op - you said HUMANS are bad in light of what has happened with this awful rape and abuse case but it’s specifically MEN who have done this. I don’t see any mention of women coming to a strangers house to sexually assault an unconscious woman while her husbands films it.
Just men.

I agree. And I'm also very invested in my desire not to see the fervent, constant, relentless and ruthless attempts to silence women from discussing such issues swept under the rug, either.

They show us precisely why women have the problem we do, why the patriarchy is so entrenched, and why seemingly even other women have such a vested interest in maintaining that structure of oppression at their own and other women's expense.

Digesting some of these responses must surely be prompting some readers to ask themselves who, exactly, stands to gain by keeping the status quo precisely as it is.

It's sickening, abhorrent, disgusting and terrifying. WHY do they hate us?

Exactly. Presumably these men have wives, daughters, sisters, mothers.

‘I also can't get my head around some of the defense arguments. I understand an accused person has to offer a defense but are these men really making the argument, in this day and age that the husband had consented to multiple men violating his unconscious wife's body so it must be ok? Or that the lady knew what what would be happening beforehand so that's also ok?’

There is no defence, which is why their lawyers are coming up with this bull.
its up their with the ‘sleepwalking’ rapists or the rapists & murders who have suddenly found a whole generation of women who really want to to be raped and choked or like it ‘rough’.

This has got to stop and I hope that this will be the first case for men to be held truly accountable for their actions because what has become blatantly clear is that they had zero remorse and men will continue to do whatever they think they can get away with if their are no consequences