To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

Oh FFS. It's NOT man hatred to point out the sex differential in violent and sexual crimes.

If we're not allowed to talk about the reality because of hurty feelz then it will never be tackled properly.

Well said.

Oh please. pLEASE just wise the hell up. Yes they are MEN just MEN and this is a case of MEN abusing and raping a woman.
So anyone entertaining some whataboutery can absolutely do one.

Using this thread as an example, women came on and some of the first thoughts that went through their heads were "it's not all men" "women are worse" "how on earth has their mother raised them for them to turn out like this" "you must hate men"

Immediately the protection of men gets put into place before they've acknowledged any outrage towards the actual matter, a 70 man strong gang rape.

If 70 women were found guilty of sexually abusing a man, none of that would happen. You wouldn't get men saying "it's not all women" " men are just as bad" "I wonder how their Dad raised them if they turned out like this" and other women certainly wouldn't point it out either.

Men, collectively, need to do better and rather than sitting around and pleading it's not all men, actually do something about the men it is. Call out the behaviour that's wrong, make their fellow men answerable for their shitty actions rather than applauding them. If they don't attempt to change the narrative, what makes them better? They might not be abusive, they may not rape or assault or murder or be disrespectful towards women but allowing other men's actions to go unnoticed, they are still part of the problem.

It's not the sole job of a woman to correct mens behaviour. If we can be logical enough to know it's not all women and can call out unequal behaviour and mysoginistic behaviours, why can't men do the same?

Ted Bundy - An American serial killer who confessed to the murder of 30 women in the 1970s, though the true number of his victims is unknown and may be higher. Bundy lured, raped, and murdered his victims in several U.S. states before being captured, tried, and executed in 1989.
Harvey Weinstein - A former Hollywood film producer, Weinstein was convicted in 2020 for rape and sexual assault after numerous women accused him of decades-long sexual harassment and abuse, sparking the global #MeToo movement.
O.J. Simpson - Former American football player and actor, Simpson was acquitted in 1995 of the murder of his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman, in a highly publicized criminal trial. He was later found liable for their deaths in a civil trial.
John Wayne Gacy - An American serial killer known as the "Killer Clown," Gacy sexually assaulted, tortured, and murdered at least 33 young men and boys in the 1970s. While not directly targeting women, Gacy's notoriety and violence have made him infamous.
Bill Cosby - American comedian and actor who was accused by over 60 women of sexual assault, drugging, and rape. Cosby was convicted in 2018 of aggravated indecent assault, though his conviction was overturned in 2021 due to a procedural issue.
Jeffrey Epstein - A financier and convicted sex offender, Epstein was accused of trafficking and sexually abusing numerous underage girls, often with the help of his associates. He died in jail under controversial circumstances in 2019 while awaiting trial.
R. Kelly - A famous American singer and producer, Kelly has faced multiple accusations and was convicted in 2021 on charges of racketeering, sexual exploitation of a child, and kidnapping, in connection with his decades-long sexual abuse of women and underage girls.
Chris Brown - An American singer who, in 2009, was convicted of assaulting his then-girlfriend, singer Rihanna, leading to widespread public and media scrutiny. He has since faced several other accusations of violence against women.
Charlie Sheen - An American actor with a long history of allegations of domestic violence, assault, and drug abuse by several women, including ex-wives and former partners.
Phil Spector - An American music producer convicted in 2009 of the murder of actress Lana Clarkson in 2003. Spector had a history of abusive behavior toward women throughout his career.
Ray Rice - Former NFL player who was caught on video in 2014 assaulting his fiancée (now wife), Janay Palmer, in an elevator. The incident led to his suspension from the NFL and became a significant moment in discussions about domestic violence in sports.
Mike Tyson - Former heavyweight boxing champion convicted in 1992 of the rape of an 18-year-old woman, Desiree Washington. Tyson served three years in prison for the crime and has been accused of other acts of violence against women.
Roman Polanski - A filmmaker who fled the United States in 1978 after pleading guilty to the statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl. He has since faced multiple accusations of sexual abuse from other women.
Woody Allen - Film director and actor accused by his adopted daughter Dylan Farrow of sexually molesting her when she was a child. Allen denies the allegations, but the case has continued to spark significant controversy and debate.
Andrew Tate - A former kickboxer and online influencer who has been accused of misogynistic behavior and sexual assault by several women. Tate was charged with human trafficking and other offenses in Romania in 2023.
Pablo Escobar - The infamous Colombian drug lord and head of the Medellín Cartel who was known for extreme violence, including acts against women such as rape, kidnapping, and murder.
Mel Gibson - An actor and director who has faced multiple allegations of domestic violence, including a high-profile incident with his ex-girlfriend Oksana Grigorieva in 2010, where recordings of Gibson making violent threats were made public.
Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer) - An American serial killer who was convicted of murdering 49 women in Washington state during the 1980s and 1990s. Ridgway preyed on sex workers and young runaways.
Fritzl, Josef - An Austrian man who imprisoned his daughter Elisabeth in a basement for 24 years, repeatedly raping her and fathering seven children with her. The case was revealed in 2008 and shocked the world.
Oscar Pistorius - A South African Paralympic athlete convicted in 2015 for the murder of his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, whom he shot through a locked bathroom door in 2013. Pistorius claimed he mistook her for an intruder.

Jack the Ripper - An unidentified serial killer from the late 19th century, believed to have murdered at least five women in London in 1888. Jack the Ripper's crimes were marked by brutal mutilation, and his identity remains one of the world's most famous unsolved mysteries.
Larry Nassar - A former USA Gymnastics doctor who was convicted in 2018 of sexually abusing hundreds of young female athletes over the course of several decades. His case led to significant scrutiny of abuse in sports.
Scott Peterson - An American man who was convicted in 2004 of murdering his pregnant wife, Laci Peterson, and their unborn child. The case received widespread media coverage in the United States.
Robert Chambers (Preppy Killer) - An American man convicted of manslaughter in 1988 for strangling an 18-year-old woman, Jennifer Levin, in Central Park, New York. The case became widely known due to Chambers' privileged background and the media portrayal of the victim.
Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire Ripper) - An English serial killer convicted of murdering 13 women and attempting to murder seven others in the 1970s and 1980s. Sutcliffe primarily targeted sex workers in Yorkshire and Greater Manchester.
Jimmy Savile - A former British television presenter and DJ who, after his death in 2011, was revealed to have sexually abused hundreds of children and women over several decades. The scandal led to a major investigation into child sexual abuse in the UK.
John List - An American mass murderer who killed his mother, wife, and three children in their New Jersey home in 1971. List evaded capture for nearly 18 years before being apprehended in 1989.
Robert Durst - An American real estate heir who was convicted in 2021 of the murder of his friend Susan Berman and suspected in the disappearance of his wife, Kathleen McCormack Durst, in 1982. Durst's case became widely known after the HBO documentary series The Jinx aired in 2015.
Jian Ghomeshi - A former Canadian radio host accused by multiple women of sexual assault and violence. Ghomeshi was acquitted of several charges in 2016, but the trial sparked significant discussions about sexual violence and consent.
Darren Sharper - A former NFL player who was sentenced in 2016 to 20 years in prison after being convicted of drugging and raping multiple women in several states.
Marc Dutroux - A Belgian serial killer and child molester convicted of kidnapping, torturing, and murdering young girls in the 1990s. Dutroux's case revealed serious police incompetence and led to significant public outrage in Belgium.
Israel Keyes - An American serial killer who confessed to multiple murders across the United States before committing suicide in custody in 2012. Keyes targeted both men and women, often in brutal and premeditated attacks.
Vince Neil - The lead singer of Mötley Crüe, who has been charged with assault multiple times, including for incidents of violence against women, such as a 2016 assault on a woman in Las Vegas.
Josh Duggar - A former reality TV star who was convicted in 2021 of receiving and possessing child pornography. Duggar had previously been accused of molesting several girls, including his sisters, when he was a teenager.
Mark Wahlberg - Actor and musician who has a past criminal record involving violence. He was charged with assault and attempted murder in the 1980s, though not specifically against women. He has expressed regret for his past actions.
H.H. Holmes - An American serial killer who built a "Murder Castle" in Chicago during the 1890s, where he lured, tortured, and murdered an unknown number of women. Holmes confessed to 27 murders but is suspected of many more.
Cliff Richard (The Yorkshire Ripper Hoaxer) - Not the musician, but the anonymous man who falsely claimed to be the "Yorkshire Ripper," leading to police confusion and delays in catching Peter Sutcliffe. Although not directly a perpetrator of physical violence, his actions indirectly impacted the investigation into violence against women.
Ariel Castro - An American kidnapper who held three women captive for over a decade in his Cleveland home. Castro physically and sexually abused the women before they were rescued in 2013. He was sentenced to life in prison plus 1,000 years and later died by suicide in his cell.
Fred West - An English serial killer who, along with his wife, Rosemary West, sexually abused, tortured, and murdered at least 12 young women, including their own daughter. The Wests’ crimes spanned several decades and included burying the victims at their home in Gloucester.
David Parker Ray (Toy-Box Killer) - An American serial killer suspected of torturing and murdering numerous women in New Mexico. Ray was known for his "Toy Box," a soundproof trailer he used for torture. He was convicted in 2001 but died shortly afterward.
Albert DeSalvo (The Boston Strangler) - The man who confessed to being the "Boston Strangler," responsible for the sexual assault and murder of 13 women in the Boston area during the early 1960s. Though his confessions were later questioned, he remains a notorious figure associated with violence against women.
Gary Heidnik - An American murderer and kidnapper who imprisoned, raped, and tortured six women in his Philadelphia home during the 1980s. Heidnik was executed in 1999.
Drew Peterson - A former police officer convicted of murdering his third wife, Kathleen Savio, and suspected in the disappearance of his fourth wife, Stacy Peterson. Drew Peterson's case drew significant media attention and raised questions about domestic violence.
Fritz Honka - A German serial killer who murdered at least four women in Hamburg between 1970 and 1975. He dismembered and hid the bodies in his apartment, which were discovered only after a fire broke out.
Luis Garavito - A Colombian serial killer known as "La Bestia" (The Beast) who confessed to raping, torturing, and murdering over 100 young boys in the 1990s. While Garavito primarily targeted boys, his extreme violence and notoriety have placed him among the world's most infamous criminals.
Edmund Kemper - An American serial killer who murdered ten people, including his grandparents and mother, in the 1960s and 1970s. Kemper targeted young women, often picking them up as hitchhikers, and engaged in acts of extreme violence and necrophilia.
Ronnie Kray - One of the infamous Kray twins, British gangsters involved in organized crime in the 1950s and 1960s. While they were not primarily known for targeting women, the Krays were involved in violent activities, including several allegations of violence against women.
Jerry Sandusky - A former assistant football coach at Penn State University convicted in 2012 of sexually abusing young boys over a period of several decades. While his crimes were not against women, his case brought widespread attention to sexual abuse in institutions.
Joran van der Sloot - A Dutch man suspected in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway in Aruba in 2005. He was later convicted of murdering another woman, Stephany Flores, in Peru in 2010.
Warren Jeffs - The leader of a fundamentalist Mormon sect, Jeffs was convicted in 2011 of child sexual assault and accused of orchestrating systemic abuse of underage girls under the guise of "spiritual marriages."
John Meehan (Dirty John) - A conman and abuser whose story was detailed in the podcast and TV series Dirty John. Meehan manipulated and terrorized multiple women through emotional, financial, and physical abuse.
Luis Garavito - A Colombian serial killer, also known as "La Bestia" (The Beast), who confessed to raping, torturing, and murdering over 100 young boys in the 1990s. While he primarily targeted boys, his extreme violence and notoriety placed him among the world's most infamous criminals.

Elliot Rodger - An American mass murderer who killed six people and injured 14 others in Isla Vista, California, in 2014. Rodger left behind a manifesto expressing extreme misogyny, anger, and hatred towards women, whom he blamed for his perceived rejection.
Luka Magnotta - A Canadian man convicted in 2014 of murdering and dismembering a Chinese student, Jun Lin. Magnotta filmed the murder and uploaded the footage online, leading to international outrage. Although his crime did not specifically target women, his violent behavior and narcissistic tendencies highlight issues of predatory violence.
George Sodini - An American man who, in 2009, opened fire in a fitness class for women at an LA Fitness gym in Pennsylvania, killing three women and injuring nine others. Sodini's online diary revealed a deep-seated hatred of women and frustration over his perceived sexual rejection.
Darryl Littlejohn - A bouncer and criminal who was convicted of the 2006 kidnapping and murder of Imette St. Guillen, a New York graduate student. The case brought attention to issues of safety for women in urban areas and the dangers posed by predators in positions of authority.
Stephen Port - Also known as the "Grindr Killer," a British serial rapist and murderer convicted in 2016 of drugging, raping, and murdering four men he met online. Although his crimes were not directly against women, they highlight the dangers of online predators and the failures of the police to properly investigate.
Robert Pickton - A Canadian serial killer and former pig farmer who was convicted of the murders of six women, though he is suspected of killing 49 women, most of whom were sex workers from Vancouver's Downtown Eastside. Pickton disposed of his victims on his farm, and his case exposed systemic failures in the handling of missing person reports, particularly those involving marginalized women.
Ed Gein - An American murderer and body snatcher who confessed to killing two women in the 1950s in Plainfield, Wisconsin. Gein's gruesome crimes, including making trophies and keepsakes from the bodies of his victims, inspired several fictional characters in horror films, such as Norman Bates in Psycho.
Richard Trenton Chase - Known as the "Vampire of Sacramento," Chase was an American serial killer who murdered six people in California in the late 1970s. While his crimes were not exclusively against women, he demonstrated extreme violence and mental illness, drinking the blood of his victims and mutilating their bodies.
Ernest Louis Ingenito - An American mass murderer who killed his estranged wife, her parents, and three others in 1950 in New Jersey. His crimes were driven by anger over his failed marriage and custody battle, and he exhibited a deep hatred toward his wife and her family.
Joseph Fritzl - An Austrian man who held his daughter Elisabeth captive in a secret basement for 24 years, fathering seven children with her. Although his case is better known internationally, Fritzl's horrific abuse of his own daughter highlights the dangers of domestic violence and familial abuse that may go unnoticed for years.
Rodney Alcala - Also known as the "Dating Game Killer," Alcala was a convicted American serial killer who lured young women and girls, often posing as a professional photographer. He was convicted of five murders, but authorities suspect he may have committed many more.
Michael Gargiulo - Dubbed the "Hollywood Ripper," Gargiulo is an American serial killer convicted of murdering two women and attempting to murder a third in California. He targeted young, attractive women, often stalking them before attacking.
Brock Turner - A former Stanford University student who was convicted in 2016 of sexually assaulting an unconscious woman on campus. The lenient sentence given by the judge in his case sparked a nationwide debate in the U.S. about privilege, accountability, and justice in cases of sexual violence.
Reynhard Sinaga - An Indonesian serial rapist convicted in the UK of sexually assaulting at least 48 men. Sinaga drugged and assaulted his victims, many of whom were unconscious and unable to resist. While his crimes were not against women, they highlight the broader spectrum of sexual violence.
David Anthony Kraft - An American man convicted of the brutal 1979 murder of Marsha Spicer in Kansas City, Missouri. He was a parolee who had previously committed violent crimes, and his case raised questions about the criminal justice system's handling of parolees with violent histories.
Mitchell Quy - A British man who murdered his wife, Lynsey Quy, in 1998 and then dismembered her body. Quy lied to the police and media for several years, claiming that his wife had left him, before finally confessing to the crime.
Steve Wright (Suffolk Strangler) - An English serial killer who murdered five women, all of whom were sex workers, in Ipswich in 2006. His crimes led to significant media coverage and renewed discussions on the safety of sex workers in the UK.
Vincent Tabak - A Dutch engineer who murdered Joanna Yeates, a British landscape architect, in 2010. The case received extensive media coverage in the UK, and Tabak was later convicted of her murder.
Joshua Stimpson - A British man who was convicted in 2018 of murdering his ex-girlfriend Molly McLaren in a premeditated attack. Stimpson had stalked and harassed McLaren for months before stabbing her to death in her car.
Anthony Kirkland - An American serial killer from Ohio who was convicted of murdering two women and two girls between 1987 and 2009. Kirkland's pattern of violence against women included rape, strangulation, and burning the victims' bodies.
Ronald Joseph Dominique - An American serial killer known as the "Bayou Strangler" who confessed to raping and murdering 23 men in Louisiana between 1997 and 2006. While his victims were primarily men, his case underscores the range of predatory behavior and violence.
Steven Pladl - An American man who was arrested for incest after engaging in a relationship with his biological daughter, whom he fathered a child with. He later killed his daughter, their baby, and her adoptive father before taking his own life.
Timothy Wilson Spencer (Southside Strangler) - An American serial killer convicted of raping and murdering four women in Virginia in the 1980s. Spencer's case was notable for being one of the first to use DNA evidence to secure a conviction.
Thomas Capano - A wealthy American lawyer convicted of murdering his mistress, Anne Marie Fahey, in 1996. Capano's case drew significant attention due to his social status and the manipulation and control he exhibited over his victim

I could go on for hours, but this is a response to the posters who call out the likes of Hindley and West.
You can name 3 - 5.

I don't want to flood the thread with the MEN I could name.

@RosieTheHat Yes, you could fill up thread after thread. And then there are all the nameless, countless men who abuse and rape women and are never charged for it, or even reported.

There is a horrifying thread on MN right now about a man who went from some mild bottom smacking during sex to full on violence and rape.

The men who have come on here and told us how we should be thinking need to take a long hard look at themselves.

@YellowphantGrey Sadly because we live in a world where men are lionised and infantilised at the same time. It’s a very weird dynamic - yes, you can be King, little Nigel! But you also never have to take responsibility for your actions or feel bad about anything because you are too delicate!

I think the biggest danger is not the open misogynist, it’s the Nice Guy.

Nice Guy of course doesn’t think men should be killing women but he’s not going to police other men and try to stop or condemn them to their faces, because he’s a Nice Guy.

If he pushes his luck with a woman and hurts her, it’s not his fault, he’s a Nice Guy, she was just being a cock tease and hurt his feelings!

If the family unit breaks down because he’s not pulled his weight or been an equal partner, hey that’s unfair! He mowed the lawn and baby sat the kids now and again and even paid for more stuff like bills than his partner because he’s a Nice Guy! Jeez, what more do women want?!

Centering Nice Guy’s feelings is baked into us. We can’t ever hurt Nice Guys feelings because then we are not nice. And that’s the worst thing anyone can be.

Misogynist Man looks at us and sees us conditioned to never challenge a man’s wants or feelings so of course he can treat us like shit. Who is going to stop him? Not Nice Guy. Because Nice Guy is nice! He doesn’t want an argument or to tell another man how to live his life!

And if we fight back, Nice Guy and Nice Guys’s handmaids will blame us, not Misogynist Man. We had it coming. If we’d just been nicer this wouldn’t have happened.

And on the rare occasion it’s not our fault, well what can Nice Guy do? He’s not a misogynist or a bad person so how can he possibly relate to Misogny Man? Nice Guy is Not All Men.

And it’s not his job to police other men. If women want to feel safe, they need to look to their own behaviour. Nice Guy isn’t saying that to be mean, he’s just pointing out reality. We must have done something to attract Misogny Man’s rage. It’s not victim blaming to point that out.

Until it’s more uncomfortable for Nice Guy to sit on the fence reaping the rewards of our fear and excusing him than it is to challenge shitty male behaviour, then nothing will change.

Why would it? Imagine a life where doing just about the bare minimum to be a decent human makes you a paragon of your sex instead of the standard women are held to?

It’s a common tactic when women talk about the depraved behaviours of men that it suggests we “hate” them. It’s a lazy argument. Given this is Mumsnet, most posters will be women and mothers hence we have procreated with males and many of us have given birth to them. We don’t hate men, we hate what society facilitates for men. The patriarchy is bad for all men, even the good ones.

Are you sons not still very young? How can they be decent or not decent? They’re children! With the exception of a very rare minority, children are always innocent and young children especially. What’s the solution? Teach your sons not to whine that it’s not fair and women are nasty bullies. Life isn’t fair and some women are indeed nasty bullies. Teach them that the patriarchy is harmful for them as well as women. Teach them to challenge other men when they make lewd comments. Teach them not to be offended if a woman is scared walking down a dark alley in the same direction at them. Teach them about enthusiastic consent. Teach them not to get blind drunk and engage in sexual activity. Teach them that women are equals in the home and the work place. Teach them that instead of posting on an internet forum that the mean bully women “hate men” that actually we want change for our sons too and they can be part of that….or they can just complain.

I am really struggling with this, on an emotional level. Have skimmed most of the thread in between. And I very much do not want to be interpreted as believing that women are part of the problem as I know the thread is littered with this already, and it is very much not my intent. This won't necessarily be articulated well, because I am trying to unpick my feelings here.

Where I am struggling is that the original perpetrator cannot have only had his posts seen by men who knew what was going on and were interested in participating. I don't know how many were in the groups, but if 80 turned up and only a few walked away (without reporting), how many others saw those posts and said nothing. Is it really possible that only men saw it, that no women at all were on the groups to raise a flag? And, if it was only men, that none of them said a word to their partners? That no one knew anything outside of the 80 men who participated until the upskirting incident. How can that happen to find that number of rapists in a small town and no good people, either male or female, to speak up? I am genuinely disturbed by the feeling it has left me with, of horror that there was no one paying attention or willing to do something. It is very, very distressing.

You are presumably a woman and I find you pretty toxic tbh (based on this one post ofc which is daft you could be a cat with predictive text). Humans are bad. There I said it again.

Well expressed. Thank you.

Oh yes, you finding another woman toxic is very much akin to RAPE & violent attacks by men

It was a chat room called “without her knowledge” or similar so no women would come across that and the men certainly wouldn’t be telling any women in their lives what they had been searching for. The disturbing part is that there are so many men who harbour these sick fantasies and act on them given half a chance, and most of them completely get away with it.

There have been about 100 whole life orders imposed on violent criminals in England and Wales, of those 100, 4 have been given to women.

Take a look at how this gets written about.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/sentencing-and-the-council/types-of-sentence/life-sentences/

As of 30 June 2023, there were 65 whole-life prisoners. The list of offenders with a whole-life term includes murderers Rosemary West, Levi Bellfield, Michael Adebolajo, Wayne Couzens and Lucy Letby

They manage to include the names of two out of the three women with whole life orders who are still alive but only 3 out of 60 plus men. Joanna Dennehy must be feeling left out, Notice how a woman's name appears first and last to sandwich the three mens names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole_life_orders

Whole life orders have been reportedly issued in approximately 100 cases since introduction in 1983, although some of these prisoners have since died in custody, or had their sentences reduced on appeal. By 2023, there were believed to be more than 70 prisoners currently serving whole life sentences in England and Wales.[2][3] These include some of Britain's most notorious criminals, including the serial murderer, Rosemary West and the premature baby serial killer, Lucy Letby.

There they are again!!! No men even mentioned this time. Weird that Joanna Dennehy keeps being forgotten, her crimes were barbaric.

I’m becoming increasingly incensed by the NAMALT and ‘women also commit crimes like this!’ crew.

Is there anyway Mumsnet can create a specific board for Men and their handmaiden’s? I’m sick of hearing from them when the focus should be on Dominique and I suspect her DD who have been raped by disgusting animals at the request of their own DH/DF.

Yup, even the judge is in on it, which I find astonishing and repugnant. I wish someone had spoken up for Gisele in that moment and reminded the judge that the defendants were charged with rape, and not "sex scene".

Apologies, wrote wrong name - meant to write that the focus should be on Gisele, not Dominique the evil husband.

@Threewheeler1 thank you for letting me know it was the judge. I'm in shock.
I have to admit, when I first saw the article I couldn't bring myself to even read beyond the headlines as I felt so shaken by it and also frightened as I have a DD.
I've since read and it's beyond belief that monsters like this exist. I hope this lady finds peace and the justice she deserves.
The potential sentence is only 20 years from what I've read, it's not enough.

@Whenwillitgetwarm as frustrating as it is it’s better they are on here ‘challenging’ us - some have had their little handmaid feelings hurt so much it might, at least, stop them repeating their toxic victim blaming nonsense in real life, to a victim.

Though given how lacking in common decency or humanity they are when it comes to the victims of male violence, that might be a faint hope.

'There I said it' is really not the intelligent and persuasive argument you seem to think it is 😬

Again, people are comparing women to men in such a lazy way. I would rather read a toxic written post about my views than be drugged and raped by 70+ men.

If all humans are bad as each other I really don't think this is the case to illustrate it. 70+ men are accused of a horrific crime. The woman at the centre of it is waiving her anonymity in the hope of helping other women.

You need to find a different case to prove "women are just as bad".