Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)

1000 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 01/08/2024 16:11

Angela Carini is the incredibly brave Italian boxer who had her Olympic dream shattered in less than a minute after being punched in the face by Imane Khelif, a male competitor who was disqualified from the women’s World Championships last year because his testosterone levels were too high.
Everyone should be saying her name. Over and over and over again.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
39
NotBadConsidering · 02/08/2024 11:35

Just a reminder that the second man is getting his chance to beat up a woman in about 3 hours or so. I won’t be able to watch this one.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:36

ThisNoisyTealLurker · 02/08/2024 11:26

I am a trans ally but it does extremely unfair and more thought should have been put in to this. I feel that trans athletes do have an unfair advantage but it’s also unfair that they shouldn’t be able to compete either. Could trans women and trans men compete in their own categories? Surely that would be fairer.

That's been tried. They aren't interested in having their own categories.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 02/08/2024 11:40

ThisNoisyTealLurker · 02/08/2024 11:26

I am a trans ally but it does extremely unfair and more thought should have been put in to this. I feel that trans athletes do have an unfair advantage but it’s also unfair that they shouldn’t be able to compete either. Could trans women and trans men compete in their own categories? Surely that would be fairer.

Why do people feel the need to qualify themselves with "I don't hate trans", "I'm a trans ally", "I'm no bigot" etc etc? I mean yeah most people don't hate trans people, most people would stand for the dignity and safety of their fellow humans, being aware of human biology does not make you a bigot!

When you say this, I feel what you are saying is "I'm scared people will discount me or be angry with me (possibly even to the point of threatening me with, or even carrying out physical violence against me) for speaking the truth"

I used to do it too, because it felt like if you didn't say "I'm not a bad person, no really!" some people would just dismiss you out of hand. I have since come to learn that those who would do all those things above are the sort of people who give 2 shits about women & girls. They will in fact take any opportunity to bash you because you are standing up for females by speaking the truth.

I don't deal with bullies and people that insist that 2+2=5. Once you get past the fear of the bullies that tell you (gaslight you!) to ignore science, ignore the evidence of your own eyes, ignore the little voice inside us all that screams out "This is wrong!" when we see an injustice done, you find yourself in the placid waters of free thought.

It's really quite liberating, come join us for a swim - there's quite the crowd now, you aren't alone and you are not a bad person!

Time to link this again:
Open swimming category cancelled | Mumsnet

And a c&p of my last post talking about this from another thread:

Remember the swimming event that was set up specifically for trans identified competitors? No one entered! Not one trans identified male wanted to compete in that event at all.

They want to compete against women, knowing they have a clear biological advantage. They want to go where the women are. They know if they compete in a trans specific event that they will have few (if any) biological women (transmen) to compete against and it will by and large be a male vs male event.

Simply put they are bloody unabashed cheaters who have found the path of least resistance to medals, sponsorship, etc etc etc.

The knock on effect of this ideology in women's sport down to grassroots level is huge.

Women deserve their own fair competitions. They deserve to get a chance to go on to compete at higher levels, and they deserve the sponsorships that will - in this brave new era \s - now inevitably go to the trans identify men who compete against, and trounce them because of their male biological advantages instead.

Any trans identified male who competes in women's categories is a cheat. Plain and simple.

Open swimming category cancelled | Mumsnet

Quel surpris. Nobody entered the category. When will the scales fall and people realise it's about beating women and taking their places, not wanting...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913049-open-swimming-category-cancelled

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:41

Sharron Davies has suggested a restricted category for female born people and an Open category for literally everyone. Totally inclusive, retains equality and safety for women.

No. They won't do it. Because it is not about safety, equality or dignity. What, then, is it about and why are women so evil if they refuse to be sacrificed for it?

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:43

ThisNoisyTealLurker · 02/08/2024 11:26

I am a trans ally but it does extremely unfair and more thought should have been put in to this. I feel that trans athletes do have an unfair advantage but it’s also unfair that they shouldn’t be able to compete either. Could trans women and trans men compete in their own categories? Surely that would be fairer.

it’s also unfair that they shouldn’t be able to compete either

Of course they can compete. In their correct sex class. Why is that a problem?

endofthelinefinally · 02/08/2024 11:43

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:36

That's been tried. They aren't interested in having their own categories.

It is all about humiliating, controlling and hurting women.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:46

Yes @Fetlocksblowininthewind.

"I'm a trans ally, but..." means, "Please don't hate me, please don't shout at me. I don't have a problem with trans people and using their preferred pronouns and so on, but I don't think it's fair for people who have been through male puberty to compete in women's sports. Or for male rapists to be housed in women's prisons. Trans women are women, of course they are, I'm not disputing that. Except sometimes they're not. Well, they are women, but they're a different type of women who should be treated differently to other women in circumstances where we actually treat women and men differently. Please don't hate me, I'm not an evil nasty TERF. I might be saying exactly the same things as those evil and nasty TERFs but I'm a trans ally, really I am, please don't send me rape and death threats or try to get me fired from my job."

Look, I get it. I do.

But this is Mumsnet, you can call a spade a spade here. The worst that's going to happen is that people will politely disagree with you.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:47

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:43

it’s also unfair that they shouldn’t be able to compete either

Of course they can compete. In their correct sex class. Why is that a problem?

Because none of these people would qualify in a male category, so it does actually mean they can't compete.

For the same reason that 99.9999% of the human population can't compete at the Olympics.

NotBadConsidering · 02/08/2024 11:50

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:46

Yes @Fetlocksblowininthewind.

"I'm a trans ally, but..." means, "Please don't hate me, please don't shout at me. I don't have a problem with trans people and using their preferred pronouns and so on, but I don't think it's fair for people who have been through male puberty to compete in women's sports. Or for male rapists to be housed in women's prisons. Trans women are women, of course they are, I'm not disputing that. Except sometimes they're not. Well, they are women, but they're a different type of women who should be treated differently to other women in circumstances where we actually treat women and men differently. Please don't hate me, I'm not an evil nasty TERF. I might be saying exactly the same things as those evil and nasty TERFs but I'm a trans ally, really I am, please don't send me rape and death threats or try to get me fired from my job."

Look, I get it. I do.

But this is Mumsnet, you can call a spade a spade here. The worst that's going to happen is that people will politely disagree with you.

Do it to Julia.

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:53

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:47

Because none of these people would qualify in a male category, so it does actually mean they can't compete.

For the same reason that 99.9999% of the human population can't compete at the Olympics.

Well yes, obviously.

But it is incredible how many people actually don't understand that anyone can try out to compete in their correct sex class and have the same chance as anyone else. I said this to someone a short time ago and I'm not kidding, her mouth dropped open. She literally hadn't considered that a transwoman athlete could still be included as much as any other male bodied person. It actually had not occurred to her that "can't compete as a woman because you're not one" did not mean "barred from competitions because you're trans".

She's an intelligent person, too. Honest.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 02/08/2024 11:53

There's very few situations in life where sex really matters but when it matters it is Sex that matters. In a sport where 1 sex has an advantage over another then people need to be correctly entered in the sex category that they biologically are which unfortunately for the IOC means doing more than checking their passport. It means saying no to males.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 02/08/2024 11:54

Thulpelly · 02/08/2024 11:30

So you’re saying that you can’t really know if someone is biologically male or female unless you know which chromosomes they have?

Eh? What?

No I can see. Most people can tell, it's really not hard. In fact there is an argument to be made that women have a natural and particular sensitivity to being able to tell from a distance as part of a survival instinct - someone's gait for example is a very good indicator on a dark night with a shadowy figure coming towards you on a quiet street.

What I actually said there above was:

The Y chromosome only ever occurs in males and never in females regardless of secondary sex characteristics which may appear to look like female presenting genitalia.

Which funnily enough means exactly what it says on the tin. If you have a Y chromosome, you are male. The Y chromosome only ever occurs in males and never in females.

What's difficult to understand about that?

A but this is just another silly argument from the MRA agenda isn't it?

MRA: "No one can really tell anyone's gender without being told? Bigot!"

Everyone else: (visible confusion) "Um... well yeah we can tell their sex. People have been able to distinguish with amazing accuracy the sex of other people for thousands of years. Some people don't conform to stereotypical looks and we might be a bit unsure, but for the most part it's actually really self evident."

MRA: (Gleeful shouts) Oh so you can't always tell! Ha! (Makes impressive leap from standing start) So that must mean that you want everyone to undergo chromosomal testing to be sure do you? Bigot! Fascist! TERF!

Not enough eyerolls in the world.

ETA: missed the importance of correcting gender/sex conflation.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:55

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:53

Well yes, obviously.

But it is incredible how many people actually don't understand that anyone can try out to compete in their correct sex class and have the same chance as anyone else. I said this to someone a short time ago and I'm not kidding, her mouth dropped open. She literally hadn't considered that a transwoman athlete could still be included as much as any other male bodied person. It actually had not occurred to her that "can't compete as a woman because you're not one" did not mean "barred from competitions because you're trans".

She's an intelligent person, too. Honest.

Is she...aware that there are trans men and female non binary people competing in women's categories?

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 11:55

Is she...aware that there are trans men and female non binary people competing in women's categories?

Honestly, I don't know. She might work it out...

The good news is that by the end of the conversation, she had conceded that there might be a case for protecting female sports and that the idea wasn't hateful.

zibzibara · 02/08/2024 12:00

There's Swyer syndrome but it's very rare.

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 12:02

zibzibara · 02/08/2024 12:00

There's Swyer syndrome but it's very rare.

It also shows itself when a person doesn't go through puberty, which these boxers clearly have.

TheKeatingFive · 02/08/2024 12:05

Whatever DSD Khelif has, it's not Swyer syndrome

Boltonb · 02/08/2024 12:07

TheKeatingFive · 02/08/2024 12:05

Whatever DSD Khelif has, it's not Swyer syndrome

It’s a fucking attitude problem that he has. Pretending you’re a female, punching a female in the head, and then grabbing her breast after the fight.

I’m incandescent with rage. So fucking angry. What can we do?

Runningupthecurtains · 02/08/2024 12:08

My word that IOC briefing was quite the thing.
So we have confirmation that the only thing needed to enter the women's boxing at the Olympics is a passport that says female. Even though we know people can change the sex marker on their passport.

No testosterone tests because the IOC believe some women have levels of of testosterone that over lap with those of men so it wouldn't be fair. No chromosome test because apparently your sex isn't connected to your chromosomes. No here is the criteria but if you feel you are an exception or an edge case you can come to us with your evidence/argument and we will assess it's validity. No if you have a strong suspicion that a male person has erroneously accessed the female category we will investigate or reassure you that this isn't possible.
Oh and when quizzed about help and support the implication was that the boxers who have previously failed sex testing will receive it but no mention of support for the women that have to face them.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 02/08/2024 12:15

This video linked upthread by FOJN is very good on chromosomes, particularly from 26.00 onwards. I had never watched it before last night and found it very good, easily understood, and informative. I also found it a little amusing how the poor bloke just seemed a bit baffled and incredulous that he was having to explain what is really quite basic stuff like "what is a woman?".

Evolutionary biologists debunks myths around the chromosomal differences observed.

He also makes a very good point about the importance of truth telling, and why a lot of people in academia have rolled over or colluded with an ideology that at its heart is actually really quite dangerous in various ways.

Debunking Myths about the Biology of Sex - ICONS Conference

Colin Wright spoke at the ICONS Conference in Las Vegas on June 27th, 2022 and gave this talk: "What is a Woman? Debunking Myths about the Biology of Sex".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-rhLH5lYi4

namechangeforgoodreason · 02/08/2024 12:20

FOJN · 02/08/2024 11:29

That is gloriously funny, sarcastic and very, very British.😁

Thank you so much! Felt very brave posting that!

Proudtobeanortherner · 02/08/2024 12:21

I know that I am not the most educated person but I really don’t understand what legal reason prevents a judicial review to define “sex” once and for all?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 12:25

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/08/2024 11:59

Honestly, I don't know. She might work it out...

The good news is that by the end of the conversation, she had conceded that there might be a case for protecting female sports and that the idea wasn't hateful.

I always think it's very helpful in these discussions to compare and contrast trans women and trans men, using Lia Thomas and Iszac Henig as an case study.

Lia Thomas competed in the men's swimming for the University of Pennsylvania, ranking no. 462 (I believe). Thomas then decided to transition, and after a year of testosterone suppression, was cleared to compete in the women's events. Thomas then started winning races (in one case by as much as 38 seconds).

Competing in the same events was a trans man named Iszac Henig. Henig has had a double mastectomy but was not taking testosterone because testosterone is a performance enhancing substance and would have disqualified him from competing in any category, whether the women's or the men's. He was vocal about the fact that he thought trans men should be allowed to take testosterone and compete in men's categories, but accepted that this was not allowed and decided not to take testosterone and to compete in the women's categories. In one race Thomas finished in first place and Henig finished in second place.

Aside from the competitive advantage issue, Thomas insisted on using the women's locker rooms. Competition swimsuits are incredibly tight. Getting into or out of one involves a lot of very undignified contorting and can take as long as 15 minutes. It's not the kind of thing you can quickly whip on and off whilst hiding under a towel, so basically the female swimmers had to be OK with being completely naked in front of each other. They were not comfortable being naked around Thomas, who has male genitalia and is attracted to women, in their showers and locker rooms. But when they complained, their concerns were dismissed. They were told to put up with it or be kicked off the team.

Riley Gaines, a University of Kentucky swimmer who completed against Thomas, has been extremely vocal in her activism on this issue. She has been smeared, discredited, threatened, even assaulted on more than one occasion. All for daring to speak up and say, "This isn't right."

Back to the testosterone point. The rules which have typically allowed trans women to compete in women's categories in the past require the person concerned to reduce their serum testosterone levels to less than 10 nanomoles for a period of at least six months prior to competing. No female person has a testosterone level in this range. The normal range for a woman is around 0.5-2 nanomoles. The reason this threshold was chosen is because it is a threshold which takes the person out of the range for a normal male, and can be achieved by testosterone suppression. It is, however, five to ten times higher than the range for a normal female. It is also far higher than a female can achieve even by doping.

Which brings us back to trans men. If someone like Iszac Henig took testosterone as part of his gender affirming care, he would not be able to achieve a testosterone level equivalent to that of a natal male. So why should he not be allowed to do this and try out for men's events?

The point of the anti doping rules is to prevent athletes from using performance enhancing substances to obtain an unfair advantage. This is why a trans man who has taken testosterone obviously cannot compete against women. But why should they not compete against men? Their testosterone level is still going to be far lower than the men. They have not gone through male puberty. There is no unfair advantage. Even with testosterone, they are unlikely to qualify in men's events at all.

And yet Lia Thomas was allowed to compete as a woman under the influence of the same hormone that would disqualify Iszac Henig from competing. Not only the same hormone, but a higher level of it. But because that hormone was produced naturally, by Thomas' testes, rather than injected directly into the bloodstream, and because Thomas had made efforts to reduce it, the competitive advantage was deemed not to matter.

When you look at sport, it's as clear as day.

Heads male people win, tails female people lose.

And this principle can be extrapolated to most, if not all consequences of allowing people to identify as the opposite sex. Whatever the issue is, the impact of it is negative for people who were born female, and positive or neutral for people who were born male.

Keepingcosy · 02/08/2024 12:29

Trans people can't possibly compete in their biological sex class. Except trans men can compete with women. Or else they wouldn't qualify & be excluded.

Trans women can therefore compete in their sex category. Except they can't because they won't qualify and be excluded. In this case, biological women are excluded.

Any of these posters literally seeing how women have to budge up and accommodate under every circumstance? Even if it means they get belted by someone with a DSD that gives them male advantage?

Just. Can't. Believe. How these women posters don't listen to other women above hanging onto their own virtue cookies. Brava ladies 👏

WickedSerious · 02/08/2024 12:31

CaveMum · 02/08/2024 08:53

Audley Harrison has replied to Nicola with a word salad that boils down to “it’s complicated - be kind” 🙄

Audley was never the brightest pixie in the forest.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.