To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

I'm not anti-trans, but I'm sad that this is necessary as a society.

When I was younger, I really believed we were moving towards a place where there were no boys things or girls things. Like, if a boy wanted to wear make-up and high heels, he could just do so and be a boy who likes those things. Or if a girl wanted to have short hair and play with trains, that would be equally fine.

I feel like now we've regressed into a place where there are such strict parameters for being a man or being a woman. And if you don't fit into those parameters, then you should change your body to better align with the other side.

I was never an especially girly girl. Most of my friends growing up were boys. I think if I had been a child today, I'd probably feel an immense amount of pressure to question my gender. But I love being a woman. I love the woman I've become, and how I was able to define for myself what my own womanhood means to me. I think it's sad that instead of allowing the boundaries of what womanhood and manhood actually are, there is this push tonl reinforce the binary structure.

That said, if people make a decision for themselves to transition then it's their decision. I respect their right to make it and believe that they are entitled to that respect on a social and legal scale.

This sums it up neatly.

As for the individuals it's about mutual respect (or at the least civility).

And this is a totally false equivalence.

None of these groups required anyone else to compromise their rights to accommodate them.

Firstly, being pro-womens rights does not mean someone is anti-trans.

Secondly, you sound brainwashed by the Gender Ideology cult with it's talking points. You are a woman. Not a 'cisgender' woman. Get off your knees and have some self respect.

PS I am led to believe the term 'cisgender' is banned on mumsnet, because it is so deeply misogynistic and offensive, so you might want to be careful using that term.

It’s always about women making space and moving over because trans women don’t feel safe in men’s spaces, despite sharing the same biology.

No one ever addresses the fact of male violence. No one ever says that the solution is to deal with men hurting others.

I'm yet to see that there are any men hurting others in the male toilets.

This.

By your logic, a butch lesbian should not be allowed to use the women's toilets, if she looks like a man? Get a hold of yourself.

Ive never seen a butch lesbian who looks like a man!

We are very good at detecting the sex of adult humans. Its always terrifically clear - so many giveaways, the hairline, chin & jaw, hip to shoulder ratio, presence of an adams apple, eye brows/brow ridge, tendency to accumulate fat in different places. Mens bodies are really quite different to womens.

"Gender" its so regressive.....I am more of a progressive myself. We need to move on.

Some facts on this issue…

• Cross-dressing is more common than being transgender.

• A cross-dresser is a person who dresses in clothing typically associated with the opposite gender, often for emotional or sexual gratification.

• Many men who cross-dress identify as heterosexual.

• A smaller proportion of men who dress as women are transgender women.

• Transgender individuals have a gender identity different from their biological sex, which is distinct from cross-dressing.

• Being transgender is about gender identity, not sexual satisfaction. Transgender people transition to align their external appearance with their internal sense of gender, not for sexual reasons.

The unfortunate reality is that the trans movement is being co-opted by cross-dressing men. They are why women have to fight for our spaces.

A cis person is someone who identifies as the gender they were born with.

I teach children with physical disabilities. I absolutely dispute the ‘born in the wrong body’ narrative. My students with physical disabilities were not ‘born in the wrong body’, neither were my autistic pupils whose autistic presentation is a trans identity. To give another example, we do not affirm anorexic children in their belief that they must restrict their food intake; we treat the anorexia.

Yes, but don’t call yourself a woman or a man if you’re not.

I have never understood the hysteria on MN around trans women and toilets.

Do people think trans women haven't been using women's toilets for as long as there have been trans women (forever)? Has this ever been a problem? We have all probably been in women's toilets with a trans woman and have no idea. As a non makeup wearing, non skirt wearing tomboy, many trans women look a lot more feminine than I do!

Many trans women are post op so don't have penises, if this is the thing that makes the difference, how does this work? Do you want to look in everyone's pants to decide if you feel they have a right to be there?

Do anti-trans people think trans women all look like a big muscular bearded builder in a flowery dress???

No I don't want to be in enclosed toilet spaces with men (I have stopped going to my local pret-a-manger for this reason - they have made the small enclosed three cubicle toilet space unisex). This includes trans men....because I won't know they're trans men, they're just....men! I have no problem being in a toilet space with a trans woman as she is just as vulnerable as me and would be hugely at risk if she was made to use the male toilets.

Women are not at risk from trans women, they are at risk from abusive men. And yes, I understand that some abusive men may try and use trans rights to access women's spaces but that is rare and should be dealt with appropriately, most abusive men don't recognise these boundaries anyway.

Abuse of rights is never a reason to not have the rights.

The power men are having over women here is not that they are invading our spaces, it's that we're so scared of abusive men that it's preventing women from accepting trans women.

Trans women are not the problem, abusive men are.

I get you OP. So many comments on MN are shocking to me.

Like what?

Trans women are not the problem, abusive men are.
But these groups aren't mutually exclusive.

You're a woman. You do not need a special word to clarify that you are an adult female, and no subsets of women exist.

Too right.

There should be a space for everyone to feel safe, and live as they wish (and love as they wish) as long as they don't harm themselves or others. It feels as though there are 2 different battles going on: the matter of living in a strictly gendered world , and the matter of gradually eroding women and their rights.

Well said.

People are far too keen on labels these days. I just accept people as they are. I just want them to be respectful and kind regardless of their sex/gender.

FFS

People are born either male or female.

It's called biological sex, and it cannot be changed.

Trans women are not the problem, abusive men are.

Any abusive man who likes (whether you consider them to be 'genuine trans' or not) can now have access to women's spaces by saying they 'feel like a woman'. This is the issue.

Stormywhethers321 I share your views. I was a "tomboy". As a girl of 9 i chose short hair, liked football and skateboards, hated girly clothes and dolls etc. I probably would have said i wished i was a boy if I'd had parents discouraging my interests.

By todays standards, i'd be told i was trans.

I wasn't remotely! I hit puberty, was perfectly fine with my sex, definitely liked men, and matured into a happily married mother of two who prefers long hair, enjoys getting dressed up for a special occasion but still watches sports and never really wear makeup.

Great, another dumpster fire of a thread

'Many trans women are post op so don't have penises'

They really aren't.

Of course you are.

I'm not going to trawl through Mumsnet to find examples for you. There are comments about trans that I dislike, as there are on other topics. We all have our own opinions and can respectfully disagree, as I have done here without attacking anyone.