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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

1000 replies

Lilieee · 09/07/2024 01:38

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone Grin

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
AGodawfulsmallaffair · 09/07/2024 06:33

TeabySea · 09/07/2024 01:51

I don't know if I'm pro-trans, but I'm not anti-trans per se.
I don't agree that young people should be pushed into hormone taking and surgery. I am aware that there is a need for women only spaces with the women in them being xx chromosomed.
I'm aware that there are toxic gender stereotypes all around.
I'm aware that ND children may feel a closer affinity with trans identities.
I know (in social circles) 2 transwomen. They live as female, they are, what people might call "woke" and I have no issue with them.

There should be a space for everyone to feel safe, and live as they wish (and love as they wish) as long as they don't harm themselves or others. It feels as though there are 2 different battles going on: the matter of living in a strictly gendered world , and the matter of gradually eroding women and their rights.

Nicely put.

ghostlyliving · 09/07/2024 06:33

YABU if you haven’t bothered to follow the debate to such an extent that you think it’s about trans people. It’s not. It’s about men. It’s about keeping all men out of single sex spaces, because when you make exemptions in safeguarding, the people the safeguarding existed for get harmed.

CurlewKate · 09/07/2024 06:33

I honestly don't think it's as simple as pro or anti. I think one of the things that has toxified this issue form the beginning (or from when it entered the public space) is the "No Debate"
mantra, which made it difficult for instinctive allies like me to say "Can I ask this question? How do we navigate this particular issue?"

Also, the concept of "gender affirming care" meaning that people involved in caring for or counselling young people felt they could not explore options-for example, they could not suggest to a young woman questioning her gender identity that she might be retreating from femininity because of a toxic misogynist environment. Or to a young man that he might be same sex attracted. Or a not traditionally masculine man. There certainly felt to be an emphasis on very rigid gender roles- old fashioned feminists like me find that hugely frustrating and it feels like a retrograde step after years of trying to break them down.

I have more to say- but I'll start with that.

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:34

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 09/07/2024 03:43

Cloned
Why does the discomfort of a ward full of women matter less to you than the discomfort of one transwoman?
A male is significantly more dangerous to a female than a male is to another male

Because being trans is a protected characteristic. Being bigoted and ignorant is not.

Think of it like being gay or race. Then think of your hospital ward question again.

RatalieTatalie · 09/07/2024 06:35

Savemydrink · 09/07/2024 02:41

If wanting female only spaces for our daughters makes us anti trans, then I guess that’s most of the mums I know. Who in their right mind wants boys sharing the showers with their girls?

Dress how you like, call yourself what you like, I don’t care, but if you want to shower with my daughter and you are a biological male then I’m afraid I do care very much.

I don’t want my girls sharing a shower with anyone - male or female. But with daughters ages 20, 14, 12 & 9 who have all been in school and various extra curricular sports…I can honestly say that’s never been an issue. Why would people be sharing a shower?

sweetpickle2 · 09/07/2024 06:36

Another ally here!

Some of the transphobic posts on this site, and indeed this thread, are horrendous.

Reminiscent of homophobia 20 years ago in my opinion. “People can do whatever they want behind closed doors I just don’t want it rammed down my throat!” etc

FitAt50 · 09/07/2024 06:36

I pro trans but only for 'real trans people' and can only imagine what it must feel like to be born in the wrong body. I think most people are angry at deviant men who claim they are trans for an easier time in prison or to perv over women or children.

whereaw · 09/07/2024 06:37

I believe that trans women are trans women and trans men are trans men. Surely to say otherwise is to deny the existence of trans people? Which is anti-trans?
So no, I don't think I'm "anti-trans" but I also don't believe people can literally change sex and a man can literally become a woman and vice versa.

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:37

Xis · 09/07/2024 03:57

HamBagelNoCheese · Today 03:03

So a transwoman, who has had gender reassignment surgery, has no testes or penis, hasn't gone to "extreme lengths"?

Most ‘transwomen’ still appear male to the casual observer and contrary to the claims of some TRAs, nobody is conducting genital inspections, so a person who appears male should go in with the other males. I’m really not sure why how he sees himself is relevant to the conversation. Is there or isn’t there such a thing as objective reality? He sees himself one way and everyone else sees the objective reality, but we must all defer to the incorrect perception? In what other situation would this happen?

If he actually appears female to the casual observer, then while I think he should still use the male toilets, the truth is that as long as he isn’t known to be male and isn’t getting up to no good in the toilets, no-one will be alarmed by his presence in female toilets.

What about from a legal perspective? Both people in my example have all legal documents (passport, birth certificate etc.) in the gender of which they identify.

The legislation and policy decisions that allowed people to obtain documents that state falsehoods came about due to a desire to be kind to a very small number of people who were described as suffering terrible anguish over the mismatch between their actual sex and their self-perception of their sex. It was an admirable desire but it was a mistake that is causing a lot of problems to women.

The impact on women was poorly considered and the only safeguard, that people would be scrutinised by two psychiatrists before being allowed to get a gender recognition certificate, is about to be removed by the new Labour government. This safeguard was meant to ensure that only a very small number of people got legal recognition. It’s all in the records of the parliamentary debates held at the time.

Over the years, transsexual became an old-fashioned term. The new term, transgender incorporates the much larger numbers of transvestites, who were known to be sexually motivated and really not suitable to be lumped in with women. Unfortunately for women, there has been a lot of quiet campaigning by TRAs with those in government and policymakers elsewhere to get these rights. The impact on women wasn’t considered and by the time a lot of women’s rights organisations realised what was happening, rights had been granted that shouldn’t have been, at least not without open discussion with women.

Your incorrect use of pronouns is also offensive. You don't get to decide how someone identifies themselves. Basic respect doesn't cost anything.

Reality is offensive, I guess. I don’t get to decide how someone identifies themself. I don’t and have never tried to do so. But you can’t expect me to lie or pretend to believe something I don’t believe because someone else is mistaken or deluded or engaging in some deep role play.

Do you believe in objective reality or not? Changing sex is impossible. The best people can hope for is to make others believe that they are a different sex with cosmetic treatments. I use ‘he’ and ‘she’ to refer to the objective reality of their sex. How they identify is not my business.

If they were present I would avoid using any pronouns at all, for the sake of politeness, but in their absence I’m not going to engage in all that language deceit. We need clear language so people reading can understand the issues. TRAs use ambiguity to confuse people and gain declarations of support from people who don’t know whether male or female people are being referenced due to the deliberately obfuscatory language.

By your logic, a butch lesbian should not be allowed to use the women's toilets, if she looks like a man? Get a hold of yourself. Policing where other people piss is dangerous and damaging and such a stupid fucking use of your energy.

ItWasTheBestOfTimes · 09/07/2024 06:38

Have any of you actually used gender neutral toilets recently? Not the single facility but the shared sinks with multiple cubicles. They are horrendous. I was on a night out in Manchester earlier this year and pretty much every bar we went in had them. The harassment my friends and I suffered in them was off the scale. One of them was particularly bad, supervised by a male attendant who only stepped in when one man tried to follow me into the cubicle. It was not pleasant to be hit on by groups of loud drunk men whilst waiting for a cubicle to be free.

StMarieforme · 09/07/2024 06:38

Lilieee · 09/07/2024 01:38

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone Grin

Me. I met my first trans woman in 1979. I've not been 'brainwashed by an agenda' (which I've been accused if on here).
There are societies across the World that accept the existence of non binary and transgender people. It's not a Western 'phase'
Lastly, I know many people who have been attacked by men, myself included. Most women who are attacked by men are attacked in what should be their safest of spaces; their home. I know absolutely no one who has been attacked by a trans woman. If a man wants to attack a woman, he'll just do it. He won't dress as a woman to do it.
The trans hate on here is horrific.

Southlondoner88 · 09/07/2024 06:38

FitAt50 · 09/07/2024 06:36

I pro trans but only for 'real trans people' and can only imagine what it must feel like to be born in the wrong body. I think most people are angry at deviant men who claim they are trans for an easier time in prison or to perv over women or children.

Agree! How often does this happen though I wonder? Fake trans men?

hollyblueivy · 09/07/2024 06:39

I'm not anti trans but I am pro women, so sometimes my views can be perceived as anti trans although that is not the intention.

whereaw · 09/07/2024 06:39

@DoorPath do you mean we should abolish male and female wards completely?

LadyFeatheringt0n · 09/07/2024 06:40

Teaby said what i feel

protectoroftherealm · 09/07/2024 06:40

Why have you put a made up pre-fix onto what you are? You're a woman.

All this TWAW and you're giving yourself a prefix of cis?

Cis is made up bullshit. If you want to use a pre-fix to woman how about using 'real'?

hellywelly3 · 09/07/2024 06:42

I’m not anti-trans.
I do understand though that some people struggle with it like previous generations struggled with people being gay or having mixed heritage relationships.

Underthinker · 09/07/2024 06:42

FitAt50 · 09/07/2024 06:36

I pro trans but only for 'real trans people' and can only imagine what it must feel like to be born in the wrong body. I think most people are angry at deviant men who claim they are trans for an easier time in prison or to perv over women or children.

Luckily, no one is born in the wrong body. A small number of people experience psychological distress about the sex of their body. Not all trans people even have gender dysphoria though.

ahagiraffe · 09/07/2024 06:43

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:34

Because being trans is a protected characteristic. Being bigoted and ignorant is not.

Think of it like being gay or race. Then think of your hospital ward question again.

My workplace has a fasttrack scheme for people of colour. I'm white. If I say I identify as a person of colour, should I be allowed on the scheme? See the problem?

RitaAndFrank · 09/07/2024 06:44

TeabySea · 09/07/2024 01:51

I don't know if I'm pro-trans, but I'm not anti-trans per se.
I don't agree that young people should be pushed into hormone taking and surgery. I am aware that there is a need for women only spaces with the women in them being xx chromosomed.
I'm aware that there are toxic gender stereotypes all around.
I'm aware that ND children may feel a closer affinity with trans identities.
I know (in social circles) 2 transwomen. They live as female, they are, what people might call "woke" and I have no issue with them.

There should be a space for everyone to feel safe, and live as they wish (and love as they wish) as long as they don't harm themselves or others. It feels as though there are 2 different battles going on: the matter of living in a strictly gendered world , and the matter of gradually eroding women and their rights.

This.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 06:44

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:34

Because being trans is a protected characteristic. Being bigoted and ignorant is not.

Think of it like being gay or race. Then think of your hospital ward question again.

Firstly, I don't think 'being trans' is a protected characteristic. Having gender reassignment treatment is - but this doesn't apply to the man in question.

Secondly, having a protected characteristic doesn't mean you can do whatever the hell you like, regardless of the impact on others. These poor nurses are being put in a situation they feel threatened by. Why don't they matter?

CurlewKate · 09/07/2024 06:44

It also seems to be a bit one sided. We are publicly lauding trans women's achievements, whether it be in traditional women's roles, or traditional men's roles. We have had several trans women being the first woman to achieve things- there were a couple of military people in the States for example, but I don't see many transmen achieving in the same way. Not sure the Establishment would go for a trans boy getting into Eton, for example!

Garlickest · 09/07/2024 06:44

Mamtorr · 09/07/2024 06:12

I am pro trans and pro choice to live how you like

However I am totally for the nurses currently suing their trust because a pre surgery man is getting changed in their changing room and wandering around with his penis out.

How do you square your two viewpoints? This intact, sperm-producing trans woman, harassing his female colleagues to get undressed, is living how he likes. It's his choice, his identity. He believes he's within his rights as a woman.

The female nurses have made it clear they are not living how they like. They want to undress in female company only, no penis among them, and they believe this is their right.

Rights are a cake. How should they be shared here?

allaboardtheplaybus · 09/07/2024 06:44

FitAt50 · 09/07/2024 06:36

I pro trans but only for 'real trans people' and can only imagine what it must feel like to be born in the wrong body. I think most people are angry at deviant men who claim they are trans for an easier time in prison or to perv over women or children.

How is anyone meant to tell the difference? Genuine question.

Have a look at "Sophie Sparkles" on twitter. Half the timeline appears very respectable "just respectfully going about my life as a genuine trans woman". Then you've got half naked photos with nipple clamps, telling women they can choke on his massive girldick, and taking photos in women's toilets boasting about the fact that he's making women uncomfortable.

EnjoythemoneyJane · 09/07/2024 06:45

I - and virtually all the people I’ve ever discussed this with - am not anti-trans. People who have undergone gender reassignment have been protected in the UK for 20+ years under the same provisions that protect

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