To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

And I don’t believe that letting other people have rights erodes women’s rights. There aren’t a finite amount of human rights to share - it’s not a cake.

Well how do you accommodate women who need single sex spaces then? In prisons, refuges, counselling?

How are their rights to these things going to be respected?

My brother has never been a decent partner, friend or relative to women ever since his teen years. He is exceptionally selfish, it truely has always been about him and he's hurt a lot of people along the way.

I had hoped as he got older that he'd engage properly with a healthy diet, build coping strategies for stress and just become a nicer person to be around.

During COVID he had a break down and stayed on the internet for two years. He is finally back working and exploring living as a woman.
Part of his transition involved provoking two men drinking in a pub to beat him up, this apparently is part of his victim role and he now feels like a real woman. He's also dating women and I worry for their safety because it's clear he's got some strange ideas of what a woman is or should be.

I believe that society supporting him exploring being a woman rather than encouraging positive values of being a decent human being isn't helping him.

I'm not anti freedom of expression but my brother is a sick, unpleasant man and needs firm boundaries because he will exploit others whilst searching for his own happiness.

I wish the trans movement didn't support middle aged troubled selfish people to believe that their problems would be solved by self medicating with hormones.

Wanting to protect vulnerable adolescents from harming their own bodies is not "anti-trans". Nor is wanting women to have the right to privacy and dignity.

I don't know what you mean by "anti trans" tbh. That sounds like "someone who hates trans people".

What do you mean by it?

I'm a GC feminist but have seen quite a few unnecessarily snide posts about trans people. It's very unpleasant.

I am pro trans and pro choice to live how you like

However I am totally for the nurses currently suing their trust because a pre surgery man is getting changed in their changing room and wandering around with his penis out.

I would suggest most people here are not anti trans but those that are on here are very vocal

The feminism board is an echo chamber for them too and highly toxic shouting down pther womem with differing views (imo not feminist at all)

I only think of people who pretending to be the opposite sex a tiny amount of my day. I don't think people can change sex, because I believe science tells us it's not possible. I'm with Lord Winston on this subject.

I am not a cis woman. This is a divisive term, and I'm for women's equality. At the same time I believe men and women are entitled to their own spaces. People who don't want to live in the sex they were born with should be offered a third space, similar to a disabled bathroom, so that they may not mix with their adopted "gender". I am a woman. Only a woman, that's it.

I think men and women can dress how they please, wear makeup, have whatever hairstyle they like, to express themselves. Wearing an item of clothing doesn't denote what "gender" they are "feeling".

I don't think I'm "transphobic" because to have a -phobia I must be scared of transgender people. I am not at all scared. If I am to criticise some people demanding to take over single-sex spaces or for everyone to use pronouns in their email signatures then I might be accused of being anti-trans. I think that is more of an accurate term than transphobia.

Everyone is entitled to feel safe, regardless. I think everyone has skin in the game on this debate. I think safeguarding should be everyone's first priority. So if that means separating groups for that to happen, so be it.

Cis woman

It's like saying you don't collect model trains.

Can you see the difficulty that presents? That as an ally, you are saying some people are not being their true self in their trans identity? Something which is wildly transphobic if said by someone GC.

I can understand you won’t want faux trans with a criminal conviction in women’s prisons, but that requires differentiating between true trans and faux trans and I’m not seeing how that would be possible without, in effect, questioning the identity of everyone.

Can you see the difficulty you would create for yourself if you believe someone is faux trans, and their supporters disagree.
My guess is there are already criminals you see as faux trans, that is to say men, in women’s prisons which opens up a very tricky area for you.

It sounds like you share and see the validity of this GC talking point, or do you see it differently?

This sums it up perfectly for me.

I’m not anti trans, I still question giving children hormones and surgery when they are young and vulnerable but I am not against people who do it necessarily, it depends on context. Everyone deserves respect. I’m a cis
gender woman, I don’t call myself that regularly as I didn’t grow up with this language so it still feels weird to say but language changes through generations and I’m sure it will catch on for me and others too.

im not worried about women only spaces, I’m sure there will still be protected spaces for vulnerable people no matter what. Ive
never felt threatened by a trans person so really they don’t worry me, it’s cis men that bother me more but they always will whether they’ll be allowed in women’s only spaces or not.

That totally sums up my opinion too, thanks for this!

I'm not worried about women only spaces, I’m sure there will still be protected spaces for vulnerable people no matter what.

Why would you be sure of that? There are already men in women's prisons and women's refuges.

As of this moment, there is a rape crisis centre in Edinburgh, run by a transwoman, in which raped women are not able to specify female only counselling and those asking for it have been told to 'reframe their trauma'.

But what about vulnerable women who do give a shit?

For example, if a woman has been raped and can access support at a rape crisis centre, do you honestly think that she should have to sit in the room sharing her story while a visibly male bodied (even if in women's clothes) person is present even if that may be incredibly triggering and frightening for her sue to the trauma of her rape? Why does the fact the trans woman is wearing women's clothes override the reason men aren't currently allowed access to women's single sex rape crisis centres?

Essentially, don't you think that if you believe that trans woman should have access to that single sex space, you believe that their comfort is more important than that of the woman in the situation?

This isn't me being difficult or unkind, I'm genuinely trying to understand where you're coming from.

I never thought I'd see the day women prioritised men over women's safety. Here we are though.

@Southlondoner88

im not worried about women only spaces, I’m sure there will still be protected spaces for vulnerable people no matter what

Ok but there are only protected spaces left at all because those mean old feminists fought back to keep some of them. Stonewall originally lobbied the govt to remove all the single sex exceptions from the equality act.

And if it hadn't been for the GC movement, your comment above questioning the medication of children could have been a sack-able offence for many employers.

Women only toilets are about providing a space for menstruating women to deal with their sanitary protection without embarrassment. Trans women do not need such a space. It’s not anti trans to want this space protected.

It's staggering, isn't it?

Yes, I would welcome trans women in each of these cases. Because I'm not rabidly obsessed with fear of trans women. I love many trans folk, they are my friends and family.

No, it’s not 🙄 Female trans people ie trans men are welcome to use female toilets. It’s not the transness, it’s the fact that a TW is male. Women are entitled to single sex spaces. Just because you don’t mind male people in female single sex spaces doesn’t mean you get to give away other women’s rights to single sex spaces.

Note - gay men and very old men shouldn’t use female single sex spaces either. Saying that is not homophobic or ageist. Again, the reason is because they’re male.

You really trivialise transphobia by saying crap like this.

Very, very few people here are transphobic. Wanting to maintain women’s rights isn’t transphobic. The misogyny of that statement is breathtakingly.

@DoorPath

Firstly, I come in peace and am not being combative. It's a genuine question.

If a woman has been raped and can access support at a rape crisis centre, do you honestly think that she should have to sit in the room sharing her story while a visibly male bodied (even if in women's clothes) person is present even if that may be incredibly triggering and frightening for her sue to the trauma of her rape? Why does the fact the trans woman is wearing women's clothes override the reason men aren't currently allowed access to women's single sex rape crisis centres?

Essentially, don't you think that if you believe that trans woman should have access to that single sex space, you believe that their comfort is more important than that of the woman in the situation?

This isn't me being difficult or unkind, I'm genuinely trying to understand where you're coming from.

You have a point but I just don’t worry about these things, I just don’t. I don’t care if a man uses a women’s toilet, really if a
cis man who is not trans wants to rape a woman in a toilet there nothing to stop him doing that now already. Allowing gender neutral toilets isn’t going to make rape any easier if that’s what people are getting at here. also gender neutral toilets would be amazing if introduced everywhere, easier for dads to change nappies etc.

I also don’t care about changing rooms either, I usually go into my own private cubicle anyway, I’m not scared of seeing a penis or boobs or a whatever.. I’ve been to nudist beaches, naked bodies are ok. Really there are bigger issues to worry about in life. I will say though I still don’t necessarily agree with surgery or hormones too early in development. Do what you like if you’re an adult and aren’t harming anyone.

What a refreshing thread. The feminism boards are usually rude with anti-trans stuff, which to me me, isn't what being a feminist is all about.
And like a pp said, according to MN you'd think any trans females were predators and adopting the identity purely to harm women.
I'm not sure about all this "safe spaces" for women - again men aren't the enemy here. And for me feminism is about equality not hating on all men, that achieves nothing!
I don't know the answer to toilets - make them all unisex? Get rid of urinals - disgusting smelling things anyway!
Unisex changing rooms?
The point I do struggle with is sports as surely the make up of someone who has gone through puberty is different, muscles, testosterone levels etc - at the end of the day it has to be a fair race/game. I don't know the answer to that one and I'm all for inclusivity. Even if there was a trans category how would you check it was fair if people are at different stages of transition, some taking medication etc etc

Support trans women and trans men. Agree there are issues around women's safety, position in sports etc. Thing that women and trans women need to work together to ensure both have a place in society.!