To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

Another ally checking in

I Imagine I'm a GC fundamentalist, as you put it. I'm a lifetime women's rights campaigner and a gender abolitionist. My views are shared by a majority of MN feminists, though of course we all differ on some points.

If you can be bothered, I'm interested to hear what harmful & offensive beliefs you associate with my position?

Hello, @Garlickest If you don’t mind, these questions are about opinions rather than beliefs

Do you believe that trans people are second class or defective? (One actually sees the language of revulsion on some threads)

Do you feel more indignant about sexual crimes against women if there is a trans or faux trans element to them?

^ This sums up my feelings exactly.

Tandora · Today 03:31

Oooo well this has opened a can of worms. So to summarise: trans women must use the toilets associated with their biological sex, regardless of how they look. Trans men, however, cannot- unless they look like women?

I believe ‘transwomen’ should use male facilities regardless of how they look. They are male and women don’t want to share intimate spaces with males due to reasons of privacy, dignity AND safety. We can’t tell which males are dysphoric and which ones aren’t. We can’t tell which males are predators and which ones aren’t.

Dressing in female garb doesn’t mean a man has gender dysphoria. He may get a sexual kick from presenting in a stereotypically female way, or it may just be a way for a sexual offender to gain easier access to women. How are women to know what is true of any male in a woman’s toilet?

As I said previously, any ‘transwoman’ who actually passes for female on cursory inspection, will not look out of place in female toilets if behaving appropriately, so in reality they can use female toilets without causing alarm and attracting negative attention.

testosterone is such a powerful masculiniser
interesting. I thought the GC mantra was that it’s not possible to change sex? Are you hinting at a reality more complex than that perhaps?

It isn’t possible to change sex. Testosterone when taken at a sufficient dose for long enough, makes women look like men. On initial inspection, at least. It doesn’t actually make them men.

Their physiology is essentially unchanged and their anatomy is mostly unchanged too. I believe there are permanent changes to the vocal cords if testosterone is taken for long enough. Vaginal atrophy may occur but no female organs are disappearing on account of testosterone usage. Some ‘transmen’ even get pregnant whilst on testosterone. And of course, chromosomal makeup remains unchanged.

‘Transmen’ are often on the short side compared to men, sometimes with small hands and feet, but these features may not be noticed in a quick, casual encounter such as occurs in a public toilet.

So perfectly explained! This is exactly how I feel.
Disappointing to see all the 'apologists'

"I'm a cis woman... "
And "I don't care where I pee.."

Missing the point really.. nor do I but there are a lot of vulnerable females and young girls that will care. Which is why it is important to stand up against the erosion of women's rights and right to safety, right to compete fairly in sport..

Did some women before us not sacrifice so much?? So that we had a voice.

Sorry- "cis- women"

But as long as you're alright I suppose!! And suitably unaffected

Having seen the difference in two very dear family friends after they finally came out as trans, how could I be anything but supportive of them? One was in her (m to f) 60s when she finally accepted who she really was and one was 15 (f to m). The teenager hated himself so much beforehand that he genuinely refused to be in photos even as a young child. He was so uncomfortable in his own skin. I'm talking tantrums if anyone even pretended to take a photo. As soon as he figured out why he hated himself, there was an immediate change in demeanor. Once he started to transition he even started posting photos on Facebook of himself out with his school friends, smiling! I cried. The relief that he was finally happy in himself was incredible.

Unfortunately you cannot trans away male pattern violence, and trans women are still as likely to offend as men. In order for female only spaces to be effective all males need to stay out.

That position doesn't make me anti trans any more that it makes me anti men. And I like men, I'm married to a very nice one.

Transwoman are biologically male. Humans can not change their sex. This isn’t anti trans, it’s fact.

I would cry for that child too- especially when they realise that
-whilst they can look like a man, walk and talk like a man.. they never will have a penis.. is this not problematic??

Same with M to F.. they are reluctant to get the whole snip.. I wonder why this is??

Surgery and hormones can only do so much..

Or are these the nymphs of our generation?

Or conveniently are they trans and gay also?

Those poor children is all I can say.. that no one actually fully explained the limitations of the experiment..

What on earth is a 'cis woman'?

To my limited knowledge there are just Women and Men and the Martians.🤔

what is faux trans?

Can you give some examples of Trans criminals and some Faux trans examples?

I don't have a problem with women who want to refer to themselves as Cis women doing that. I don't want to police their language. If they believe in the gender woo, up to them. I just don't agree with anyone policing my language either

Isla Bryson would be faux trans I believe

Hi @poetryandwine - I’m not answering on behalf of @Garlickest but as I’m another so-called GC fundamentalist I thought I’d answer your Qs too.

I don’t believe trans people are lesser, or second class citizens. I don’t know any GC feminist that does believe that.

I also don’t think trans people are a homogeneous group, I think there are many reasons why they may feel more comfortable identifying as the opposite sex.

If a trans woman, ie/a male bodied individual, commits a crime I don’t feel more outraged. But it does add to my sense of growing frustration that some people refuse to acknowledge things that are plainly true - and that is that not everyone who claims to have a trans identity is safe to be around women in vulnerable spaces.

It’s no different to the logic we apply for men - the vast majority are lovely and safe, but not all of them. But we keep them all out of vulnerable single sex spaces because there’s no way to tell the good from the bad. The same applies to trans women. With male bodies, the stats show that trans women retain the same patterns of offending as men. This means there are some who sexually assault women. So the same logic applies - with their male bodies they have a physical advantage over women, hence why they all need to stay out, just like non trans identifying men.

I chat with some trans women online and they’re wonderful individuals. They are true allies of women. They don’t claim to have changed sex and they respect women’s spaces. They say they are trans women, not women. They feel happier leading their life as if they were born a woman and I’m delighted that they can express themselves however they choose. If more trans individuals acted like these trans women I know, then women and the trans community would actually be allies, supporting each other without treading on toes. Instead we’re locked in conflict because so many people insist on pushing valid concerns to one side and ignoring women’s voices. I’m sick of women being treated as if we don’t matter.

For the vast, vast majority of us it truly is a women’s rights issue, it’s not anti-trans despite what some might claim. We don’t hate trans people but if we don’t speak up for women, no one else will. In history women have always been sidelined. Our focus is women’s rights - nothing more, nothing less.

I’m pro trans

I’m not anti anyone except male born women in women’s sport.

it amazes me that people like the OP think this is a good thing!!

Can we talk more about this. I’m trying to figure out what you mean.

So if we take some examples.e.g. “It’s not possible to change sex.” Who do you see as being harmed by this being spoken? (Everyone?) Is it your belief that the harm comes from it being uttered, and therefore it shouldn’t be said. Or that the harm comes from it being true, and it should be made not true?

Are there other examples you had in mind perhaps?

Thanks, Poetry. No, I don't believe trans people are second class or defective. All people are weird in their own ways!

Your second question's harder to answer. While I have never before thought in terms of being "more indignant" about some sex crimes than others of similar gravity, it's probably true that I feel there's an extra layer of horror where the perpetrator used fraud or abuse of trust to facilitate his crime: police officers like David Carrick and Wayne Couzens are recent examples.

Some trans perpetrators have abused their victims' trust in them as a perceived woman, or as deserving additional kindness because of their trans status. I find these just as despicable as policemen and aid workers abusing their positions to commit sex crimes.

Now I am thinking about it, I do also feel "more indignant" about assaults that would not have happened if the male perpetrator had not been treated as female. High-profile instances would include those who've raped fellow inmates in female prisons and fellow patients on women's hospital wards. There have been thousands of other sexual assaults, some of them serious, whose perpetrators abused the access to women and girls that was granted by their trans status.

My indignation around genderism is more fundamental: people can't change sex, and women are humans of the female sex. I'm indignant that the very definition of what we are is under attack. I'm not a man in different clothes and/or a man without a penis!

The combination of sexual dimorphism and patriarchy makes female humans vulnerable to attack and exploitation by males. We have certain safeguarding and gatekeeping protocols in place to reduce those dangers. By altering the definition of woman/girl/female to include men/boys/males, we obviously dispense with all such safeguards and leave all the gates wide open. It's natural to be indignant about that, and about the consequences of doing so.

Thanks for making me think a little harder!

Anti-trans posts or transphobic posts are not allowed on MN. If you see one, please report it.

I was using the phrase faux trans for men pretending to be trans to gain access to women.

Trans criminal was short for a trans person who has been convicted of a crime

There are vast numbers of transphobic posts on some threads. Good to know this - thank you

This

Actually, I tell you what makes me the most pissed off of all about these conversations.

It’s always about women making space and moving over because trans women don’t feel safe in men’s spaces, despite sharing the same biology.

No one ever addresses the fact of male violence. No one ever says that the solution is to deal with men hurting others.

It’s almost as if society just accepts men will be abusive and violent to everyone, so it’s either up to women to share their spaces or for a third space to be created.

The spotlight is never on the root cause of all this: violent and aggressive men. They just get a free pass because they’re men.