To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

Yeah, but everyone was on the same ward. Same toilet, although it was fully enclosed, but when you were in bed you were just behind a curtain. With men everywhere just beyond it. So transpeople were not a particular threat iyswim. Afaik, it's not uncommon here in the public system. And probably not going anywhere anytime soon. As it happens it was fine, I had worse hassle in the section where I had my own room.

Well that’s very transphobic of you.

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

Of course, but that’s not a women’s problem to solve. If trans women don’t feel they can use facilities that align to their sex for what, they don’t feel safe with other males (as they are male), then that’s a male problem to solve. It’s not for women. If women want to get involved more power to them, but they don’t get to insist other women do.

That is exactly my point.

That poster said women don't need special provisions, which I think is absolutely wrong.

I wondered whether they would also apply the same statement to trans women, many (most?) of whom will have had different experiences and traumas to natal women.

Sorry it probably wasn't clear that was exactly
my point!

So if your daughter happened to be a promising athlete and you got up at 5am every day for years to take her to practice and she dedicated her entire youth to training and then she just missed out on her chance to go to the Olympics because someone who had had a mediocre career as a male athlete took cross sex hormones for a year and then qualified in the women's category, what would you say?

"Tough shit, love, you should have trained harder so you could beat the 6ft4 trans woman who has been through male puberty", presumably?

‘Bad at detail’ as a woman I’ve heard more than enough to last me a lifetime so it doesn’t really… resonate… these days.

im not here to provide you a roadmap, you’d hate it even if I had one so there’s no point. I’m just here dicking around.

trans women are women so just leave em be. Deal with bad apples of all kinds as they come up

I haven’t seen much attempt from the trans activists or supporters at constructive debate. It is usually just the mantra "TWAW! TMAM!" or insults of the "You’re a hateful transphobic bigot!" variety to anyone who doesn’t agree with all trans activist demands. If you would like to explain your point of view I’d be interested to read it.

@Horseebooks

Yeah everyone should have support. I just reckon a world where that support isn’t related to a male/female oppressor/oppressed binary would be better

But I didn't ask if they should have support in general.

You said women don't need 'special provisions' at all.

Do you believe that trans women don't need 'special provisions' at all?

I think many trans women would find that hugely offensive and dismissive of the experiences that are unique to the trans experience. Don't you?

The only answer to this is third spaces. But we cannot begin to talk about and implement third spaces until we all recognise that male people shouldn't be in the female only spaces which already exist.

Excuse me?

"trans women are women", seriously, is that all you've got?

You can say it until the cows come home, it still won't be true.

That is one very disturbed individual.

When women use cis, I'm reminded of this quote:

'He is the subject. He is the absolute. She is the other.'. Simone de Beauvoir The Second Sex

But "trans women are women" is an opinion, not a fact.

It's not even an opinion, it's a thought terminating cliché.

Even the people saying it don't believe it's true.

My young relative was advised online by older TW to say he felt suicidal (he wasn't) in order to access puberty blockers. He didn't get them and has since detransitioned, he is ND and gay, but didn't accept being gay until he detransitioned.
How many people like him will be included in suicide ideation statistics.

Oh please, if you really saw them as women you’d care as little for them as you do for biological women.

I don’t think so. Biological males have physical advantages over biological males that make it an unfair competition.

@KimberleyClark

Excuse me?

You believe that trans women are women and should be treated as such and have access to single sex spaces, is that right?

But you caveat it with not believing they should be able to compete in female categories in sport.

@Horseebooks isn't that transphobic of this poster in your eyes?

I sincerely and genuinely believe that posters like @HeadNorth and other fellow trans/Mens Rights activists on this thread would have been with men and didn't believe women 'needed' the vote. These posters will do anything to curry the favour of men. They'd throw their own grandmother under the bus and then sell her ashes if they looked good to men and gained their approval. I think these trans/Mens Rights activists should heed the words of these warrior women:

Edited to add: sorry, I think I misunderstood your post.

I see the 'individual' word and am reminded of another strategy used a lot, that it's only one man and his issues should not mean that all men who want to be in women's spaces (regardless of the impact) should lose that golden experience.

Anyone concerned about this should be aware of the prison stats.

And it again begs again the question: how many women do you require to have been injured and harmed by indulging men and providing them with greater freedoms at women's expense and risk, before you start to re consider?

And why are those men so very much more important in their feelings and self expression than women's privacy, dignity, safety?

Yes, I am capable of understanding the concept of a mixed-sex ward, thank you. On a mixed-sex ward, it is totally irrelevant whether or not someone is trans.

However, in many places there are single-sex wards, as there should be everywhere, in my opinion. And no males should be on a female-only ward.

I specifically do not care one whit about sports. Reclassify it if everyone thinks it’s so important. We already made it that we have ‘weak sports’ and ‘strong sports’ for women and men. Grade it differently. She can still go to the olympics. Give scholarships for something other than throwing a ball. Whatever

@KimberleyClark

I don’t think so. Biological males have physical advantages over biological (I think you meant females here) that make it an unfair competition.

Biological males have overwhelmingly more likelihood to be violent or sexually asdaily women.

I find it hugely troubling that you are concerned about sport being 'unfair' more than you are about the risk to women in single sex spaces (as well as the risk of retraumatising rape victims in rape crisis centres, just as one example) as being 'unfair'.

I'm philosophically a bit of a utilitarian 😉. So I guess I'm interested in "net" misery. Unfortunately it's probably not quantifiable on either side. But I don't consider damage to trans women more important than damage to women. Damage to anyone sucks. I do suspect that life as a trans woman comes with unique challenges and I can imagine it being very difficult to navigate things like women's spaces. I am sympathetic to that.

Assault that was meant to say, obviously.

Well, quite.