To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

How does not allowing a male body to enter womens spaces put that male at 'massive' risk, let alone any? Transwomen and many gay men have said the worst TW get in the males is a smirk.

And why is it ok to put females at risk, but not men?

Door labels do discourage people from entering. It's worked for decades. Until now. Do you think 'Staff Only' doors at facilities doesn't discourage non-staff from entering? Btw...

Yes. I find a lot of the posts and views on here really sad and sometimes hateful. There seems to be a notion on here that most trans people are deviants, doing it to gain access to women’s spaces for perversions. This is just simply not true for the vast vast majority. How many do we think really would be putting themselves through the mental torture and ridicule of transitioning, nevermind the physical pain of the operations the physician transition entails, if they didn’t feel as though they absolutely had to in order to survive. I feel so much sympathy for anyone whose journey this is.
I do agree that in certain limited situations it is appropriate to allow women a choice as to wether they are treated by trans women, example being the rape crisis centre in Edinburgh story that I have read about in here, this seems a sensible and reasonable example of where a victim of SA’s needs be put first.
sadly the very very small minority of trans people who are doing it for dishonest reasons are over shadowing the vast vast vast majority of those who are just people who are just normal people living in a world of pain due to feeling they were not born into the right bodies, and putting themselves though hell to try and make that better. You get deviants in every single walk of life, you can’t tarnish everyone because of a the few.

@TheKeatingFive Cis women are not at risk from trans women

I’m pro respect so that means I am accepting of how people want to represent themselves, but not if there is an ulterior erior motive, such as changing into a woman so you can win all the Olympic golds, pretending you’re a woman so you can access girls changing rooms or deciding to be a woman so you go to a women’s prison instead of a men’s.

as long as no one is at a disadvantage and you’re not hurting anyone physically or otherwise then crack on

I am extremely anti gender ideology. I find the movement to be anti gay, anti gender non-conforming and anti autism.

My non conforming, lesbian, autistic early teenage daughter is starting to believe that maybe she might be 'fixed' by being a man. She is the most perfect example of a young woman.

It's funny, she might wear trousers, but she is nurturing, extremely conscientious, interested in people's stories, involved with her wider family in ways that my sons are just not. Yet because she wears trousers (even before she came out as gay at school), she has been mis-gendered. She is starting to believe it.

One of the reasons I believe that she is gender non conforming is the choices I made for her as a toddler. I wanted her to play in an unrestricted way, so always dressed her in trousers and trainers, chose a lot of 'boy's' toys for her, because they seemed more fun. I've always wanted to challenge what is thought possible and desirable for women and girls. DD has grown into such a capable person.

I think if I could go back in time, I may have gone down the dolls and princess dresses route. I feel like I have played a large part in putting my child in physical danger by playing with gender stereotypes. Gender non-conformity doesn't seem to be an option for young people today. It just seems to mean that you must be the opposite sex.

@MoveToParis Nope, no boundaries. Trans women are women.

Or on the other side of the coin, that if a trans woman is forced to use a men’s loo the chances of them being abused/assaulted/subjected to transphobia isn’t much higher?

If a man is at risk from other men, in a male space - why would that become women's problem to solve?

Either tackle the appalling male behaviour, or advocate for third spaces. But leave women out of it.

It's not even remotely similar to arguments about gay people though.

Gay people were never trying to use single sex spaces for members of the opposite sex.

It's great if you personally feel fine sharing toilets and changing rooms with members of the opposite sex. What about women who cannot do this? They are now excluded.

What, they change sex?

Yes, because those ‘staff only’ door labels stop armed robbers don’t they? 😆

A male body with penis and testicles is not a woman.

@Garlickest Nope, I'm comparing the bigotry of a transphobe to the bigotry of a homophobe. Hope that helps.

I am not anti trans in how I feel but I am pro women and 100% agree with Jk Rowling’s position which makes me TERF and apparently anti trans so there we go

I've never heard of someone stealing anything from a staff only room.....

Have you even been following what has been happening in competitive sport or are you too busy patting yourself on the back?

This language was imposed upon us with no debate or nuance.I am a woman.No cis about it

This

These debates about trans showering with kids and raping women are like the debates about gay people a few decades ago. Actually only in 2015 in Ireland when there was a vote on legalising gay marriage there were posters put up everywhere saying things like ‘we don’t want our children to hear the sounds of sodomy.’ why do children always get mentioned in these debates, paedophiles already exist, why would a trans person be anymore likely to assault a child or a woman?

And if we’re using the fake trans debate where men can pretend to be women to assault a child or cis woman then can’t they lure women in under false pretence already? Men can dress in uniform to gain people’s trust, it’s happened before and they can pretend to be someone they’re not online to commit crimes, trans rights won’t increase crime rates the same way gay rights didn’t.

I’m here OP.

Its exhausting. If you try and stand up you get hounded into the ground so I think a lot of people just can’t face it.

It’s ruined mumsnet for me tbh cos I can’t stand by and say nothing ever, and it comes up in such random places but the responses are just so damn hard to deal with, it reminds me of every fight I ever had online as a teenager with MRAs, convinced they’re superior and determined to WIN rather than have any kind of conversation.

Im mostly here for when I have the energy to try, cos I think it’s so sad that a place for women has become this, and there’s so much we could be doing to move things in a good direction and find solutions for people’s concerns that don’t involve shouting THEYRE ALL MEN over and over and over and

Yes lots of posts on here are horrific. And nope, you’re getting no examples off me!

They're at risk from men - TW are men - it's a defining characteristic

This is a terrible comparison. To make it, you have to completely ignore the link between maleness and women’s experiences of male violence. You are basically having to pretend a males’s maleness is irrelevant to how a woman is experiencing him at a rape crisis service.

Women at rape crisis centres have been traumatized by men. For this reason a male should not be at a support group for female rape victims.

Some men ( many given how popular misogynistic internet porn is) are aroused by women being raped and assaulted and aroused by having power and control over women. Being able to force women to tell of their trauma in front of them, is a rousing to these men. Such men will take advantage of safeguarding loopholes which allow them to enter these services.

A woman being black is utterly irrelevant to women’s experience of male violence and hence it’s not a relevant comparison.

Hi! Another non-anti trans person here.

That sentence is about as meaningful as "Brexit means Brexit".

It's entirely circular.

If trans women are women, what the hell is a woman? Because, speaking as a woman, I genuinely have no idea.

i think most people think like this however MN GC will not let any nuance into the conversation.

More importantly, once you let some males in, you let all males in.