To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

[Lilieee]

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone

As a rape survivor, it is NOT 'transphobic', to not want a male body in the ladies. You're femphobic, misogynistic, and heartless and cruel towards abuse survivors.

Do all the people objecting to being called a cis woman also object to being called a straight woman or a white woman? Because you see straight, white, cis woman as "normal"? Check your fucking privilege.

That’s BS - I have known butch lesbians and they look nothing like men! It’s more androgynous teens that couid be either male/female at first glance. A young teen boy with long hair is often hard to distinguish from a girl, but once puberty kicks in it’s obvious.

you seem nice

Women don't have 'privilege'. And would you be ok with a black person being called non-white? Because that is what you're suggesting should happen.

@TheKeatingFive

Try to think of it like race. If a racist woman didn't want to share a rape crisis centre with a black woman, would you suggest the black woman who had been raped should be forced to leave, because the racist is uncomfortable?

What an offensive and disingenuous comparison. A complete false equivalence.

Women are not at more risk of sexual assault from other women of a particular race.

There was a nuanced discussion once upon a time, based on accommodating a few individuals with very specific additional needs for special treatment. That was probably a healthy, productive situation. But someone broke the model.

People started

-transing children.

-demanding that there was no line at all to be drawn anywhere between women and men who said they'd transitioned.

-not only accommodating but centering transitioners in all situations, so medical treatment was impacted.

When people's serious health issues are at risk because their medical records are inaccurate, or the language is too obscure; when sex offenders are prioritised in women's spaces over the objections of the women there, when children are medicalised for life- that conversation can no longer be nuanced.

I'd love it to be nuanced. I'd love to go back to conversations about how to help the traumatised teen lesbian I know and love make it through to adulthood.

Unfortunately she's been taking testosterone a while now so I don't think a full recovery is possible.

Bring back nuance.

I’m pro people being able to follow whatever set of stereotypes they choose to. I am also pro single sex spaces.

I object to cis because its part of a belief system I don't share. I don't have a gender identity - I have a sex.

Pointing out that men literally bashing women and fracturing 72 year old womens eye sockets and that we should be 'raped until we bleed' just may have some reason to do with people turning against these trans activists? Well, if the truth hurts you.

Unless, of course, you think it is totally acceptable for men to act like that....

I am happy to share spaces with fully transitioned MtF , I have a colleague who is and am comfortable with that.
I object to sharing with a man who claims to be trans.
That is the difference to me.

I agree wholeheartedly. I can't believe how much this thread has been hijacked. I struggle to think of a way to celebrate and support our trans friends on MN without being drowned out by this mob.

I also believe that the risk to a trans woman not having access to women’s spaces puts them massively at risk. Do you genuinely believe that the only thing stopping a sexual predator assaulting someone is that they couldn’t possibly break the rules by entering a room with a symbol of a woman on the door. Or on the other side of the coin, that if a trans woman is forced to use a men’s loo the chances of them being abused/assaulted/subjected to transphobia isn’t much higher?

@ItWasTheBestOfTimes Maybe a third space for bigots?

Exactly this. The hypocrisy is mind boggling. They want rights and to hell with anyone else. This is what makes woman so bloody angry- including me obviously.

I am pro-trans, I really couldn't care less about the genitals or former genitals of the person in the toilet cubicle next to mine. I'm happy to make all toilets/changing rooms gender neutral and accessible to all with individual locking cubicles for those who want or need added security.

Have you heard of Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria?

But equally, I don’t believe that the vast majority of trans individuals have ‘decided’ to become trans to infringe on women’s rights or perve at them in changing rooms.

Which begs the question why they aren't advocating for third spaces.

Regardless, this is not fundamentally about 'true trans' whatever anyone believes that to be. It's the fact that any man who wants access to women's spaces can have that access by simply saying they 'feel like' a woman.

Personally, I think transmen like your brother should use the male toilets, as his presence is likely to distress women in the female toilets (although I'm not sure what his tattoos have to do with anything...)

Should my transfemale colleague, who has been taking female hormones for 10 years, who has natural breasts and has vaginoplasty surgery use male toilets in the absence of a neutral space?

Your transsexual colleague is a rare example of a 'transwoman' who has actually had surgery and taken female hormones, and therefore is not representative of the vast majority of self-declared 'transwomen', over 90% of whom have had no vaginoplasty and do not intend to.

I know several trans teens. The main thing hurting them is telling them that they can be the opposite sex, and that others will see them as such. This is a lie.
An anorexic teen would never be offered a weight loss plan to help them lose weight because they think they’re fat. Treating trans teens by validating their beliefs (that are wholly a social construct and stick to harmful gender stereotypes) is exactly the same. They need help to understand that their sex will remain the same whatever they do to themselves, and be supported to grow to comfortable in their own skin - in fact I think that is one of the most important things that can be done for a child/teen.

I am happy to share spaces with fully transitioned MtF , I have a colleague who is and am comfortable with that.
I object to sharing with a man who claims to be trans.
That is the difference to me.

Well I’m not. They’re both still men and I have no interest in sharing with either of them.

Well I'm only scanning the thread and have seen a transman referred to as "she".

@borntobequiet As you well know, my implication is not that lesbians are sexual predators. They are not, It's that a homophobic bigots don't get to use their discomfort to deny other people access to a space.

But what if they’ve made the personal choice not to have surgery due to risk/waiting times etc? Therefore they’re not genuinely trans? What proportion of trans women who haven’t had surgery do you believe to be ‘pretending to be trans’?

I’m a trans ally and know several people who are trans (and I suspect have interacted with several others without being aware).

as long as someone is a decent human being they can identify and present themselves any way they like. I’ve shared a bathroom with a trans woman on a regular basis and have never felt threatened or bothered in the slightest way. I really don’t understand what the fuss is all about.

i will say that for certain sports, mostly contact sports, trans people can either be at risk or pose a risk to other players, or have an unfair advantage. I don’t have the answer to that. However, the trans people I know are usually just so bloody happy to be living in a way that makes them happy (and in one case, no longer suicidal) I don’t think my concerns over sports gets to trump someone’s rights to live.

a lot of the anti trans and gender critical talk reminds me of the late 80s talk around gay people. I know some Miners won’t be old enough to remember those times. It was rough for someone to be openly gay or lesbian. I recall a gym teacher at my school being sacked because she had a female partner - it was felt that, because she was lesbian, she must automatically be a predator and was unsuitable to be around children. Obviously now we would be very angry if that happened in our schools.

i think that, in time, attitudes to trans people will hopefully undergo the same shift towards acceptance that attitudes did towards gay people. At least, I really really hope they will!!