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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if anyone else on MN is not anti-trans?

1000 replies

Lilieee · 09/07/2024 01:38

I'm not interested in someone 'debunking the trans agenda' or how no one on here is like that, all I'm interested in is if any pro-trans Mumsnetters could pop up so I don't feel alone Grin

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
TheRozzers · 09/07/2024 07:04

I totally respect women who choose to believe trans women are women and are happy to be naked / vulnerable / asleep in single sex spaces with biological males.

Women and girls who need single sex spaces free from biological males must be respected too.

People who try and force women and girls who may be rape or abuse survivors to be naked / vulnerable / asleep in 'safe' single sex spaces with biological males are anti-woman. Sorry OP but you are anti-woman.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 07:05

I'm not "pro" trans, but I'm not anti-trans, and certainly not as "burn them at the stake" as the majority of Mumsnet are.

Again, can you give an example of what you're talking about. That's quite an accusation.

borntobequiet · 09/07/2024 07:05

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:55

I mean, I would feel the same as if someone protested to getting changed around a lesbian. They shouldn't be "forced" to do it, but neither should their bigotry mean that lesbian women are excluded from female changing areas, to protect from homophobes feeling uncomfortable.

False equivalence. Lesbians are (by definition) women. Sexual orientation is not the same as “gender identity”.

Your implication that lesbians are sexual predators is both distasteful and homophobic.

greencatbob · 09/07/2024 07:05

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 09/07/2024 02:14

Depends how you are defining your terms, OP.

If being "pro trans" means you believe trans people should be free to live their lives as they please, free from oppression, discrimination and harassment, provided they aren't harming anyone else, then I expect you will find that almost everyone on Mumsnet (and in wider society) is "pro trans".

If being "anti trans" means understanding that humans can't change sex and sometimes sex matters, and believing that women should be allowed single sex spaces and sports and that we shouldn't be performing irreversible medical interventions on children and young people with gender related distress, then I expect you will find that most people on Mumsnet (and in wider society) are "anti trans".

This sums up where I am on the matter.

We need common sense.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 07:06

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 07:04

We're not. We're interested in trans women's safety. Trans women are not men, you transphobe.

They obviously are men. We all know that.

SoreAndTired1 · 09/07/2024 07:06

PinkDevon · 09/07/2024 02:17

This is anti trans

How is it anti trans to believe male people with penis and testicles should not use the ladies? If that is 'anti trans', what you're really saying is that you are anti women, and anti womens most basic of human rights. Single sex spaces away from bodies.

ComeAlongPeggy · 09/07/2024 07:06

HamBagelNoCheese · 09/07/2024 02:19

This always interests me.

Where do you draw the line? What about trans men? (Rhetorical Qs btw(

Should my transfemale colleague, who has been taking female hormones for 10 years, who has natural breasts and has vaginoplasty surgery use male toilets in the absence of a neutral space?

My transmale brother is 6ft tall, muscular, tattooed, bearded, has had top surgery but not bottom. Should he use female toilets?

In my experience, toilets are one of the big issues for trans people, and until they "pass" as the gender they identify, they will always opt for a gender neutral facility wherever possible.

@HamBagelNoCheese
Wouldn’t your brother rather use female
Toilets so she can sit down on a toilet without wee being all over it?

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 07:06

alldayeveryday247 · 09/07/2024 06:31

@DoorPath

Firstly, I come in peace and am not being combative. It's a genuine question.

If a woman has been raped and can access support at a rape crisis centre, do you honestly think that she should have to sit in the room sharing her story while a visibly male bodied (even if in women's clothes) person is present even if that may be incredibly triggering and frightening for her sue to the trauma of her rape? Why does the fact the trans woman is wearing women's clothes override the reason men aren't currently allowed access to women's single sex rape crisis centres?

Essentially, don't you think that if you believe that trans woman should have access to that single sex space, you believe that their comfort is more important than that of the woman in the situation?

This isn't me being difficult or unkind, I'm genuinely trying to understand where you're coming from.

Try to think of it like race. If a racist woman didn't want to share a rape crisis centre with a black woman, would you suggest the black woman who had been raped should be forced to leave, because the racist is uncomfortable?

CelesteCunningham · 09/07/2024 07:06

I'm trans-inclusive in my feminism, I'm a cis woman and transwomen are women.

I suspect there's a silent majority on here who feel the same but no longer open any thread even remotely related to gender issues.

Haven't RTFT but just by scrolling through I can see an awful lot of long posts that I know from experience will be various takes on "I'm not transphobic, but...".

Much like when someone says "I'm not racist, but..." we see you and we know what you mean.

Drfosters · 09/07/2024 07:06

HamBagelNoCheese · 09/07/2024 03:03

So a transwoman, who has had gender reassignment surgery, has no testes or penis, hasn't gone to "extreme lengths"?

What about from a legal perspective? Both people in my example have all legal documents (passport, birth certificate etc.) in the gender of which they identify.

Your incorrect use of pronouns is also offensive. You don't get to decide how someone identifies themselves. Basic respect doesn't cost anything.

Edited

And their experiences are that are a trans person. They are their unique experiences and absolutely should be respected. I am a trans ally from that respect so if you asked me am I pro trans I am to that extent.

But. Being a women, for example, is more than removal of organs, make up and dress.

girla are socialised differently. No matter how much work society does to try and make things equal, women are always at a disadvantage. Girls still do less STEM subjects, they are (in general) less pushy [remember women are more likely to be bossy rather than assertive] and they go through far more changes during puberty which mean they can make radical changes about their life direction like drop out of sports [and there are have been some studies that show that women who did school sports to a high level and more like to be the women in senior leadership position]

Many girls have to battle into the workplace with heavy periods, nausea and and stomach cramps. I have terrible cramps and I have sat through work meetings almost crying because I was in such pain but women can’t complain about things like this in the office. I have been in fear of leaking my period in the office when having a heavy flow which has affected my ability work at my best.

the point being is that women are at a disadvantage to women from the moment they are born and it is a testament to our strength and resilience that we power through.

when a biological male is in the female toilets, many women feel uncomfortable . No amount of being kind, removes that natural feeling. It is self preservation. We don’t know people’s intentions and we are primed to find anyone who could overpower us a threat. We make instant assessments in day to day life and obviously 99.9% of people we assess they are fine but bathrooms/changing rooms are a place where we feel most vulnerable and so forcing people uncomfortable in order to ‘be kind’ isn’t fair.

for a person who was born male to have all the be benefits of being born male and then chooses to transition and think that being a women is just the change of appearance, I find very hard to accept. It doesn’t make their experiences as a trans person any less valid though. I am sure that they also have gone through lots of issues themselves . I am sure the hormones are awful and the surgery painful. But their experiences are not of those of a women. (Or a man if the transition is the other way)

Until the debate acknowledges this then it will always be toxic.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 07:07

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 07:06

Try to think of it like race. If a racist woman didn't want to share a rape crisis centre with a black woman, would you suggest the black woman who had been raped should be forced to leave, because the racist is uncomfortable?

But it's not like race. Women are not at risk from women of different races.

FindingMeno · 09/07/2024 07:07

I don't understand any of the sex and gender stuff and all the labels. I can never remember what is what.
I don't know if it makes me anti trans to want to know that the women's rights and spaces I've supported all my life are for women and not for men who identify as women.
I expect that might make me anti trans in some people's eyes. Which annoys me as I don't identify as such.

Worldgonecrazy · 09/07/2024 07:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Obechod · 09/07/2024 07:07

I’m neither pro nor anti trans.

I believe that trans people should be free to wear what they want, live their lives as they want to an extent.

However, I don’t want my young daughter exposed to a grown mans penis in an open changing room, I want her to be able to change freely. I don’t want her sports to be invaded by biological men. Women fought hard for the right to have safe spaces and separate sports category.

Tarns people have to be realistic and with all the will in the world, they will never be able to change their biology. Most try and change the way they look but honestly, most look like men dressed up as women and that’s fine but please don’t try and gaslight me into believing you’re a woman. You’re a Trans woman, that’s fine and own it. But there’s a reason women have safe spaces and sports categories etc and they should be protected at all costs.

I think you’ll find that most women aren’t against Trans people but please stop with the cis business. I’m a women, trans women are just that. If all this could be accepted then I’m sure we can all live happily ever after ☺️

MoveToParis · 09/07/2024 07:08

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:30

Yes, I would welcome trans women in each of these cases. Because I'm not rabidly obsessed with fear of trans women. I love many trans folk, they are my friends and family.

Do you also identify as a misogynist? You certainly through female prisoners under the bus to your virtue signalling.

You may be proud that when trans women demand you jump to validate yourself as an ally, you always ask How High? But a moment to ask “Am I really OK with a rapist saying they are trans and thereby having a certain route to women’s prison cells, and locked hospital wards?” would do you the world of good.

Do you really have absolutely no boundaries?

Chickenuggetsticks · 09/07/2024 07:08

TheRozzers · 09/07/2024 07:04

I totally respect women who choose to believe trans women are women and are happy to be naked / vulnerable / asleep in single sex spaces with biological males.

Women and girls who need single sex spaces free from biological males must be respected too.

People who try and force women and girls who may be rape or abuse survivors to be naked / vulnerable / asleep in 'safe' single sex spaces with biological males are anti-woman. Sorry OP but you are anti-woman.

This, you can’t make that choice for other women.

It’s basically transphobia to know that transwomen are men (this should be obvious as it’s true) and therefore should be treated the same as any other man in regards to single sex spaces, sports etc.

TheKeatingFive · 09/07/2024 07:09

What about from a legal perspective? Both people in my example have all legal documents (passport, birth certificate etc.) in the gender of which they identify.

Having a 'legal sex' that's different to your biological sex is obviously a totally nonsensical position.

HowIrresponsible · 09/07/2024 07:10

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 07:04

We're not. We're interested in trans women's safety. Trans women are not men, you transphobe.

😂

How are they not men? Because they say they're not?!

They're men..always have been ...always will be ...Will never be anything else but a man.

wildfellhall · 09/07/2024 07:10

I think to say anti or pro trans is just too simplistic for this issue. In order for it to be meaningful the definitions have to be more sophisticated.

I am very pro the individuals who are genuinely trans.

I have concerns about women's sports and spaces and I want to be able to discuss these too.

This is an area which has produced conflicting rights - there's no way around it. Demonizing either side IMO - doesn't help. Naivety doesn't help either.

But I personally want to be as kind as possible to individuals. It's hard to legislate for this area where definitions are disputed.

Garlickest · 09/07/2024 07:10

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 06:55

I mean, I would feel the same as if someone protested to getting changed around a lesbian. They shouldn't be "forced" to do it, but neither should their bigotry mean that lesbian women are excluded from female changing areas, to protect from homophobes feeling uncomfortable.

Are you really saying a lesbian woman is like a man? In this case, a man with a proudly functional penis, which produces functional sperm?

Maybe have a think about what you just wrote ...

NoDishiRishi · 09/07/2024 07:10

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 07:04

We're not. We're interested in trans women's safety. Trans women are not men, you transphobe.

It’s not transphobic to state that Transwomen are men. It is not possible to change sex so they remain biologically male.

Prancingponies · 09/07/2024 07:10

Me. Cis woman with trans friends.

FangsForTheMemory · 09/07/2024 07:11

I’m not anti-trans and I agree with you that there seem to be a lot of people on here who are, to the extent that I wonder who’s organising them.

ProfessorPeppy · 09/07/2024 07:11

DoorPath · 09/07/2024 07:00

Yes indeed, a lot of trans people are autistic. Do you think this is some sort of "gotcha!"? Autistic people are often uncomfortable with performing a gender that they are not. Fucking good for them! Long live trans culture.

Where did I say ‘gotcha’?

Our job is to support young people through to adulthood. It doesn’t matter how they present themselves, it is an expression of their personality. It does matter if they come to harm before they become adults. They do not need cheerleaders with an agenda rushing them to make irreversible changes, they need their distress to be framed as a difficult but normal part of growing up.

aperolspritzbasicbitch · 09/07/2024 07:11

Can i just ask, what is so offensive or anti trans about women preferring that there could be an option for a 3rd safe space?
Having a mixed changing room or toilet would surely keep everyone happy and safe? I actually don't know what this isn't more common already, as it would solve the issue some parents have with being able to take their children in to spaces like this too.

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