To think that asking people if they have kids is an innocent question

[SiberFox]

Two of my best friends are childless not by choice and finding it hard, and I’m learning to navigate that as a friend with a baby. Blogs, podcasts and forums for the childless have been really helpful for me to better understand how they might be feeling/what not to say etc, as well as my personal experience of recurrent miscarriage. I am on board with most advice I’ve seen so far.

However, something that I’ve seen frequently on there is the condemnation of the “do you have children?” question - it keeps bugging me. I understand where it comes from - when you’re grieving, it must be triggering, uncomfortable, painful to be reminded of that/to try and find an adequate answer. But the conclusion that it should therefore be banned as a “lazy”, “insensitive”, “triggering” question just seems like an overreaction? It’s not like asking a stranger how many kids they’ve got which would be stupid and insensitive as an assumption, it’s just establishing a basic fact about the person. I’ve seen many people say that it’s completely not interesting/irrelevant as you get to know the person, but how is it irrelevant? It’s literally one of the major things to know about someone.

I’m finding the “Where do you come from” question uncomfortable at the moment because my country is screwing up politically on the global arena but it doesn’t make me think that we should ban the question. Anything can be triggering - asking about someone’s line of work (what if they’re unemployed), etc etc, where do we draw the line?

AIBU that there is nothing wrong with the question per se? Or am I lacking empathy here?

@Rycbar so sorry to read this, how awful for you.

YABU

When you don't have kids and want them, being asked if you have them can be incredibly painful. That's a lot of pain to inflict on someone for your own idol curiosity.

Your right to keep asking anyway, but don't be surprised if people distance themselves from you for it.

I literally never ask. In situations where the conversation is lots around children and the other person is asking a lot about my child and making comments about kids I might say something like 'do you have any kids in your life?' or something, which gives someone the opportunity to contribute with 'yes, I'm very close with my niece' or something, but largely I try to just not ask.

Operate on the assumption that if someone wants to talk about their child they will bring them up.

Lots of well-meaning conversational topics can be quite hurtful to others. It's nice to be thoughtful and respectful when possible.

It's helpful to learn other ways of widening the conversation and showing curiosity about the other person other than the old boring 'do you have kids' 'what's your job' questions. It's nice to ask 'have you been anywhere nice lately?' (doesn't have to mean holidays, could literally mean the local park) 'what do you enjoy doing in your downtime?' 'have you seen any good shows lately?' or whatever.

Can we also encourage people to stop with the invasive, presumptuous 'when you having your second?' 'is she your only?' 'time for a sibling!' comments.

I'm sure it's not anywhere near on the level of how someone feels who wants kids and can't have them when they're asked, but it's still incredibly personal and can be so very painful to hear. There have been times when a comment like that from a shopkeeper has had me holding back tears on the way back to the car and ruined the day for me. Yes it's my issue to deal with, yes therapy, yes not all about me, but what was the goal there? If it's to make polite conversation there are plenty of ways to do that without asking invasive nosey personal questions.

I think it is just a topic of conversation and it is unfair to expect no-one to ever ask that question in case it upsets a stranger. What you find upsetting is going to be completely different to what someone else does.

If you find being asked about something upsetting, isn't there some responsibility on you to have replies that satisfy the asker? Why are they automatically the bad person for not knowing your circumstances or being interested in you?

I remember reading a newspaper interview with William Hague many years ago. He was asked if he and his wife wanted children and he said “Yes - and that is all I’m going to say on the subject.” I think that’s a perfectly good answer to the question of whether you have children if you find it upsetting. “No - and that is all I want to say on that subject”.

I find parents will always start talking about their kids fairly quickly anyway so it's not really a necessary question. I'm childfree by choice so I don't personally care about being asked but I understand for some it's not a choice (and honestly it's more ppl than you might think where that's the case).

I found saying 'no I don't, I wanted them but unfortunately, life conspired against me'
was a 'light' way of saying, no but not through choice.

then moving the conversation on myself.

yes it still stabs at my heart, but it's less awkward & most people mean no harm

I really don't care what people ask me.
They can ask me "where does your dad live" and I'd just say that he's now dead but he used to live where he used to live. I won't be triggered at all.

If anything, I prefer people asking questions than people just talking about themselves. That's how you get to know people, which for me is always an enjoyable experience.

I think the problem is people might feel judged for not having children. I don't have kids and I don't like being asked.

Why do you feel people will judge you? Genuine question.

Have a squizz at this thread, lots of examples of what arseholes people can be to childless or childfree women.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/childfree-mumsnetters/4845372-worst-comment-youve-had-as-a-child-free-woman

I spent a long time, and a lot of money, trying to have children - unsuccessfully. I don't really mind if, in small talk, someone asks 'and do you have a family?' (Even if it is a daft question, as yes, I have siblings, parents, nieces & nephews, etc.) I just say 'no, it's just me', and move on. I don't need to tell them anything of my painful journey.
What I do mind is when people go on about it. That's when it becomes intrusive and hurtful.

We have a DD and once got asked if we were "going to try for a boy"

I know someone who was the second boy in a family who were ‘trying for a girl’.

The girl came eventually, but every one of her older brothers was made to feel guilty for not being her.

What do these idiots expect you to do, put blue sheets on your bed instead of pink?

Did you find that distressing or just annoying?

Why would the responsibility be on the upset person to satisfy the asker? In the cases of people on this thread who've lost a child, what witty answer should they be expected to have on hand to make that conversation easier for the person asking the, always potentially insensitive, question? If you feel the need to ask the question then it's on you to deal with a reply you might not be anticipating as an easy bit of small talk. I never had any because I never wanted any, and can't imagine that pain, but even still my answer of 'no' is enough.

Yes, the answer these people need is "None of your fucking business".

If you want to come across as rude and aggressive and say ‘fuck off, none of your business’ to what was probably an innocent question from someone who is interested in you, then that’s up to you.

Just make sure you never ask anyone anything about themselves because you don’t know what their circumstances are, or else be prepared to be told to fuck off.

This is about more than the simple "have you children" question, it's about the ones who persist with "Why not?" - who don't take no for an answer. Which has been discussed at length through the thread.

I was asked this in an interview yesterday!

What should I have said? I told the truth that I have a DS11 but really hated that they asked me.

Incidentally I have been offered the job so it hasn't affected the outcome but it still doesn't sit right with me.

Have you RTFT, @MagpiePi? I think it’s a relevant question.

Lol yeah on a training call recently the man onboarding us asked me and the other woman (in a lull in the convo) if we have kids. I think he was just trying to make conversation and it was meant with innocent intentions – however I think we both smiled a bit as it was so obviously an inappropriate thing to ask and I’m certain would not have been asked of two men!

It was a question I found intrusive and difficult especially as I'd had fertility treatment miscarriage and a stillbirth. If women have children they tend to mention it pretty early on. If you mention your kids or grandkids and the woman you're talking to doesn't pipe up with some info about her kids she probably doesn't have any.

Isn’t it illegal?!

It is awful that they asked.

I actually think your answer may have ‘helped’ your case. (An 11 year old, not at nursery, not getting sick all the time, not too dependent, fair chance she won’t have another with only one about to start high school).

Edited to add this bit for context if the employer is thinking along those lines. As opposed to someone saying they have a 5 year old and a 3 year old, they could be thinking there’s a chance of another maternity cover.