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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

1006 replies

FactsNotFictionOnly · 22/06/2024 22:36

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Why Were the Jews Persecuted?

Tim Black seeks to understand the origins of antisemitism, looking beyond the Holocaust to the ancient Middle East and medieval Europe.

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
Murica · 27/06/2024 02:23

Some support in the USA. x.com/FreeBlckThought/status/1806125046416703566

Humdingerydoo · 27/06/2024 07:09

Whenwillitgetwarm · 27/06/2024 00:05

Whilst I agree antisemitism and other forms of discrimination are on the rise, David Baddiel isn’t a good choice in the fight against it. He was more than happy to encourage racism during the height of his fame.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/21/jason-lee-interview-david-baddiel-apology

Why isn't he a good choice in the fight against it? Surely he's the perfect choice if he's now genuinely remorseful and has learned from it? He can speak with experience from both sides. Or do you not think people can learn from previous mistakes?

GladRoseSeal · 27/06/2024 14:13

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 19:55

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 11:32

That's fine, but there's really no need to mention Israel in a thread about anti-Semitism.

I'm just catching up on this thread... but I've seen this point raised a few times... it is clearly an effort to discredit the person you are talking to by trying to paint them as antisemitic, which is really not very nice.

Israel is mentioned in the OP! So it is not antisemitic to discuss Israel in a thread where Israel is mentioned in the OP.

Is it?

Humdingerydoo · 27/06/2024 20:12

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 19:55

I'm just catching up on this thread... but I've seen this point raised a few times... it is clearly an effort to discredit the person you are talking to by trying to paint them as antisemitic, which is really not very nice.

Israel is mentioned in the OP! So it is not antisemitic to discuss Israel in a thread where Israel is mentioned in the OP.

Is it?

Did I say it was? Or did I say there was no need to bring Israel in to a discussion about anti-Semitism?

It sounds like you're trying to discredit me and paint me as someone weaponising anti-Semitism. Why? What good do you think that would achieve?

Why do so many people seem to struggle with talking about anti-Semitism without feeling the need to force a conversation about Israel?

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 20:48

TorturedPoetsDepartmentAnthology · 23/06/2024 13:54

Do you project anger all the time over it? It’s possible to care about multiple causes, some are less important and wide scale than others.

Coming on a thread about antisemitism and talking about the plight of Palestine is one thing. However, it’s purposeful derailing.
Yes, the actions of the Israeli government are wrong and they should be stopped. This has to end. You’re equating this with antisemitism.
British (and other nationalities) Jews are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government.
The antisemitism we experience is NOT excusable. Obviously verbal and physical abuse is not on the same level as what is being experienced in Palestine but we are not comparing.
Ask yourself why you need to constantly bring it up on these threads.

The OP LITERALLY mentioned Israel and October 7 attacks. How is it derailing to then mention Palestine?

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 20:54

AmadeustheAlpaca · 23/06/2024 13:55

All these endless pro Palestinian marches in Britain, do they really think they will achieve anything? Will Netanyahu think while he's having his breakfast one morning "I must stop attacks on Gaza because some randoms in Glasgow are saying I should'. It's great that we are a democracy and have the freedom to do this but the hassle and disruption caused by marches plus the threatening behaviour of some marchers does not endear them to many. Why no marches against Russia or China?
So many pro Palestinian posts on Mumsnet sound as if they are generated by trolls and AI. The same words are used repeatedly, children, women, genocide, Islamophobia.
It's like an AI mantra.

Not sure about China, but hasn't 'the west' already boycotted Russia and stopped funding them in any way shape or form?

Israel is regarded as a democratic 'western' nation that we hold to our own standards. Our pension funds are being used to kill Palestinian babies. Our tax money is keeping this war going.

Is China a democratic western country?

We have zero say or influence on what China does. We can and do protest... but it means nothing. To protest against the current Israeli actions... means something!

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:07

HowoftenshouldIdothis · 23/06/2024 15:04

Thank you @DownNative Very interesting. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll have a look for that book to learn more.

Edited

Please also find other sources of Irish history. Let's just say I don't believe that particular poster is unbiased when it comes to Irish affairs.

degivow943 · 27/06/2024 21:08

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HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:26

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/06/2024 18:00

This is true, but it's interesting that every poll suggests the UK government are about to get an unprecedented pasting, whereas every poll conducted among Palestinians indicates massive support for their current leadership

So you're telling me that reporters, doctors, aid workers, etc. can't go anywhere near Palestine withoutbeing shot... but pollsters have free access? 😂

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:36

Humdingerydoo · 23/06/2024 18:52

The threat is real. It is constant. It is not imaginary. People really, really hate Jewish people and always have done. They've also always acted on that hated.

Hope that clarifies matters for you.

Unfortunately there is a very real threat to everyone currently. I've been told to 'fuck off back' to my country. I've also been punched in the face by a man in a 'random attack', which only happened when he heard my nationality. These are only the more recent events too.

So when I read comments like yours, I don't understand why you think this is something reserved for Jewish people. All minorities get the hatred. We needn't divide and conquer, but should perhaps wonder who the common enemy is.

Bunnyasmyname · 27/06/2024 21:41

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:26

So you're telling me that reporters, doctors, aid workers, etc. can't go anywhere near Palestine withoutbeing shot... but pollsters have free access? 😂

She didn't say that at all. Not even a hint of it.

Blinded by bias is one thing, but you're being ridiculous in this case.

Humdingerydoo · 27/06/2024 21:41

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:36

Unfortunately there is a very real threat to everyone currently. I've been told to 'fuck off back' to my country. I've also been punched in the face by a man in a 'random attack', which only happened when he heard my nationality. These are only the more recent events too.

So when I read comments like yours, I don't understand why you think this is something reserved for Jewish people. All minorities get the hatred. We needn't divide and conquer, but should perhaps wonder who the common enemy is.

Because anti-Semitism has increased absolutely insane amounts since October 7th. It was crazy high before, but the amounts it has increased of late is more than other forms of bigoted hatred. I'm not sure why you're trying to minimise it? What are you trying to achieve by doing so? Do you genuinely not see that it's a pretty fucked up thing that every time something happens in Israel, Jews elsewhere get attacked?

And out of interest, how much do you pay for security at your childrens' school or nursery because of the threat to you and people of other minorities?

Stop minimising anti-Semitism. It's a truly awful look.

Comedycook · 27/06/2024 21:42

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:36

Unfortunately there is a very real threat to everyone currently. I've been told to 'fuck off back' to my country. I've also been punched in the face by a man in a 'random attack', which only happened when he heard my nationality. These are only the more recent events too.

So when I read comments like yours, I don't understand why you think this is something reserved for Jewish people. All minorities get the hatred. We needn't divide and conquer, but should perhaps wonder who the common enemy is.

And all these types of hatred... xenophobia, racism and islamophobia are also discussed. Right now we are discussing anti semetism.

Bunnyasmyname · 27/06/2024 21:44

What is it, something like 60% of all racial attacks in the US are against Jewish people - 4.2% of the population.

I'd say that was a pretty big problem and something of special concern to us all.

Stars71 · 27/06/2024 21:48

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 19:55

I'm just catching up on this thread... but I've seen this point raised a few times... it is clearly an effort to discredit the person you are talking to by trying to paint them as antisemitic, which is really not very nice.

Israel is mentioned in the OP! So it is not antisemitic to discuss Israel in a thread where Israel is mentioned in the OP.

Is it?

Are you Jewish?

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 22:12

Humdingerydoo · 27/06/2024 20:12

Did I say it was? Or did I say there was no need to bring Israel in to a discussion about anti-Semitism?

It sounds like you're trying to discredit me and paint me as someone weaponising anti-Semitism. Why? What good do you think that would achieve?

Why do so many people seem to struggle with talking about anti-Semitism without feeling the need to force a conversation about Israel?

Israel and October 7 were mentioned in the OP though... so it is not unreasonable to mention Palestine. You seemed to quiz several people on why they dared to mention Palestine and why it couldn't just be a thread about antisemitism. It really stood out to me like you were trying to shut them down. I'm not sure why you can't mention Palestine in a thread that references Oct 7?

kkloo · 27/06/2024 22:12

Comedycook · 27/06/2024 21:42

And all these types of hatred... xenophobia, racism and islamophobia are also discussed. Right now we are discussing anti semetism.

The thread title was
AIBU To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

To consider that then other groups of experiences have to also be considered.

If the thread title was
AIBU to think that Muslim people are the scapegoats of humanity? with a case provided of why they thought so in the OP then other groups including Jewish people would have also been brought into the discussion.

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 22:13

Bunnyasmyname · 27/06/2024 21:41

She didn't say that at all. Not even a hint of it.

Blinded by bias is one thing, but you're being ridiculous in this case.

I'm just saying how seriously should we take polls in a warzone? Is it even a thing?

Humdingerydoo · 27/06/2024 22:15

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 22:12

Israel and October 7 were mentioned in the OP though... so it is not unreasonable to mention Palestine. You seemed to quiz several people on why they dared to mention Palestine and why it couldn't just be a thread about antisemitism. It really stood out to me like you were trying to shut them down. I'm not sure why you can't mention Palestine in a thread that references Oct 7?

"I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread."

DownNative · 27/06/2024 22:18

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 21:07

Please also find other sources of Irish history. Let's just say I don't believe that particular poster is unbiased when it comes to Irish affairs.

Everyone has a bias, but that doesn't mean they're wrong. 🤦‍♂️

As it is, Professor Walker is well respected and balanced - after all, he was with the Institute of Irish Studies.

DownNative · 27/06/2024 22:20

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HelenHen · 27/06/2024 22:20

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Excuse me? Do you know me? Why do you speak for me?

DownNative · 27/06/2024 22:25

HelenHen · 27/06/2024 22:20

Excuse me? Do you know me? Why do you speak for me?

Am I wrong? 🤷‍♂️

I don't think so.

DownNative · 27/06/2024 22:29

Rachel is a Jewish woman currently living in the Republic of Ireland. In one comment a few days ago, she said she's considering leaving the ROI permanently due to antisemitism.

To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?
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