To think Jewish people are the scapegoats of humanity?

[FactsNotFictionOnly]

I have not posted on the CITME board as although the current conflict is relevant, that is not the main point of this thread.

I do not mean to cause any offence to Jewish people. In fact the opposite.

IF THIS POST IS DELETED BECAUSE IT OFFENDS NON JEWISH PEOPLE, THEN PLEASE RESPOND WITH WHY YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE BEFORE REPORTING.

I am an atheist and think all religion should be consigned to history books so have no affiliation with any faith but I found the reaction to Oct 7th shocking with almost immediate protests against Israel (the victim) in favour of the ‘freedom fighters’ (the agressors). The denials that atrocities happened, the antisemitism, horrifying comments on SM which are still allowed to stand to this day.

Never before in my life (and I’m getting on a bit) have I seen that reaction of hatred to any country that has been the victim of any kind of terrorist attack or act of war anywhere in the world. Never before have I been aware of the kind of atrocities committed in Israel on such a large scale by a neighbouring country, filmed by the perpetrators, either.

I had heard comments made about ‘the Jews’ at various stages in my life, how they run the world, the banks, the media etc but never really thought much about it or believed it.

I noticed an absolutely blatant lie that popped up on SM yesterday with thousands of comments agreeing with the poster so I responded (never normally do) saying so with evidence and the abuse I got was unbelievable.

That made me do a bit more research on the persecution of Jewish people through history and I was pretty shocked that they were blamed for the death of Jesus, murdering Christian children as sacrifices to be baked into flatbreads, the Black Death, World War 1, 9/11, Covid. All totally false and a lot of the time because it was a way of debtors not paying money they owed to the Jewish people who were the world’s money lenders as it was prohibited in Christianity and Islam and Jewish people were prohibited from other work.

Each time they were blamed for something whole communities were burned to death or had to flee. They were banished from England in the 12th century as well as lots of other European countries. Now I understand why there is so much hatred from the UK and Europeans as these ‘legends’ persist.

Of course in the Middle East from 586 BC they were persecuted where they were killed, forced to convert to Christianity (or pretend to to stay alive) before Islam took over, treated as 2nd class citizens, subject to high taxes and strict rules, regular pogroms and were also forced to leave their homes in their hundreds of thousands.

This was all before a return to Israel was even a thing so there was no ‘Zionism’ then which is currently the excuse for the widespread hatred of Jewish people.

Even before this current conflict there seems to have been a deliberate misunderstanding of the situation in the Middle East with a lot of relevant history missed out out.

Such as the Ottoman Empire ruled the area directly before the Mandate of Palestine and they referred to it as Southern Syria. There were no Palestinians only Arabs. Why didn’t they ‘freedom fight’ the Ottomans for their own State as surely they were occupied under the Ottomans too if they believe the land is all theirs?

I have never seen references to Palestinians being ‘occupied’ by the British either. Weird as they believe the land is theirs and always was theirs - from the River to the Sea.

Why do a lot of people ignore the constant terrorist attacks as the reason why not only Israel, but Egypt too, had to blockade Gaza after a terrorist group with a known mandate to annihilate Israel and kill Jews was elected to govern it by it’s citizens?

Why are people not understanding that this war is not a ‘normal’ war with normal rules of engagement between two uniformed military forces where civilians are afforded protection by their government, military hardware, munitions and bases are placed outside of civilian areas and civilians including children are not involved in military action by firing rockets, RPGs, shootings, stabbings, throwing IEDs, holding hostages in their homes and taking part in barbaric murders, rapes, burning people including children alive and taking hostages?

It is absolutely horrific that civilians have been killed in such a high number or at all but a lot of the deaths can be explained as above and are all due to the war Hamas started.

Why are Hamas not being publicly pressured by Palestinian protestors to give themselves up?

The only (and tiny) Jewish State in the world is now even being persecuted for defending itself against massive neighbouring states who want to wipe it out.

Has there ever been such a forensic examination of any other war while in progress as in this one?

The propaganda and false information circulating before and during this conflict has made it all too clear to see how the Holocaust happened and it’s terrifying to see. I used to watch films on the subject and wonder how could so many people have stood by and let it happen. Now we can all see how.

How can a tiny race of 1% of the population who have achieved more than any other race alive today, be so hated.

Is it jealousy of their success or the hundreds of years of lies that have been brainwashed down generations?

AIBU?

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/why-were-jews-persecuted

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

This is horrific and happened in London.

I do not believe or accept that xenophobia in Britain is worst since, or because of Brexit. I think that the proportion of truly xenophobic or racist people is probably smaller than it has ever been, mainly because the proportion of people who are immigrants or the descendents of immigrants is much greater, so it stands to reason. Basic arithmetic. British people under 40 are far more tolerant and relaxed about multi-culturalism and diversity in British society because they've grown up around it and know no different. In that respect, racism and xenophobia in general terms is actually decreasing, not increasing, in spite of what the Guardian tells us.

There is certainly much more concern around high levels of immigration and the wide ranging impacts on the country, but I don't think that is the same thing as xenophobia. It's always presented as the same thing in Remainer left-liberal circles, but it isn't the same thing.

I do think there has been a huge increase in subtle or not-so-subtle anti-semitism though, and not just since Oct 7. It's been happening for at least 10 years and it's been a wolf in sheep's clothing. The 'wolf' being anti-semitism, the 'sheep' being the social justice movement campaigning for a 'free Palestine'.

The increase in anti-semitism and anti-Israeli feeling among younger white British people has directly coincided with the growth in the proportion of Muslim immigrants into the UK in the last 15 years or so, and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of anti-semitic physical and verbal assaults on Jews in this country in recent years have not been perpetrated by white British people. I've noticed that my children and their peers (so the under 30s) who have not only mixed with many more Muslims and particularly people of Arab and middle eastern heritage than I ever did, have been exposed to anti-Israel propaganda through them and more importantly through social media. They are, sadly, far more open to insidious anti-semitic propaganda than people of my generation and older. They've swallowed what they've been told at face value without really understanding much about how we got here. The polarising nature of getting your politics via Tiktok hasn't helped.

That's not to say that I've ever heard them express any anti-Jewish sentiment, but I can tell they've certainly been hoodwinked into seeing Israel as the aggressor, Palestinians as the blameless perpetual victims and Hamas as 'freedom fighters'.

I remember thinking when this war kicked off that the propaganda war in this country would be to make people pick a side. If you support Israel you are anti Islam, if you support Palestine you are antisemetic, and if you think both sides are committing atrocities then you are a spoilt privileged person who is both anti Islam and antisemetic. The good old divide and rule tactic. I I am so depressed that I was right.

We are definitely encouraged to 'Look! Over there!' every time racism, modern slavery or exploitation of black people by other black people, or by any other non-white people happens, or has happened in the past. The only forms of racism, colonialism or exploitation that is suitable for discussion and acknowledgement is the sort where white people (of non-ethnic minority status, so excluding for example Irish Travellers) exploit non-white people.

An example of blatant antisemitism from Paris, France this time. 👇

There are so many incorrect and frankly ignorant comments in this post that I don't even know where to start.

Then don't.

I thought you don't like the IHRA definition because it says it's antisemitic to compare Israel to Nazi Germany, which you were having great fun doing on a previous thread.

I said on the previous thread that I found this particular part of the definition odd. The rest of it makes sense but this one appears to stop people from making comparisons that some might find uncomfortable rather than something that is truly anti-Semitic. The fact that there is also the point that says that you can't hold Jews responsible for the actions of the Israeli government seems to make it clear enough that you aren't therefore comparing all Jewish people.

I did find it interesting that posters here are quite happy to say things about Palestinians that would be considered anti-Semitic if they were said about Jews. It's almost like when it's done against other people, it's not as much of a problem.

In the UK, the Attorney General has given the go ahead for a case to be brought against someone prominent for antisemitism. 👇

Are you not fully aware that this thread is about anti-semitism?

Yes there has been. Also many East Asian students got awful abuse during COVID and were terrified to go out. Muslims in the UK have been the long term scapegoats for practically every single problem, from immigration, housing crisis, terrorism, lack of integration (whereas the ultra orthodox Jewish population's purposeful segregation is facilitated). Black people are profiled in pre-emptive security policies, the Roma are hated absolutely everywhere they go, ditto Travellers. Sadly all minorities, especially (but not always) when they are non white are scapegoated to one extent or another.

And genuine question, the OP said Jewish people have achieved more than any other race alive. Can anyone elaborate on that?

Is that what you take from this thread? Even if the OP was right, are you trying to argue that assertion is to be given more credibility than anti-semitism?

What are you talking about? I responded to a pp's claim about Chinese people. And I'm asking a genuine question about that assertion, it has absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism.

Except this thread is, specifically, about antisemitism. There have even quite a few attempts at derailment so apologies if I have misinterpreted you.

Apology accepted

Thank you x

Campaign Against Antisemitism in the UK have another announcement in a different case. 👇

@poshsnobtwit

i think the holocaust is your answer.

It happened on European soil in supposedly civilised democratic countries - there is no othering there other than the Jewish heritage ( no matter how historic or diluted) as the victims weren’t immigrants, weren’t degenerate, werent anti social, weren’t uneducated, were contributors, etc ( not that any of those things are justifiable) - there was no other feature behind it other than their Jewish heritage.

And it was an attempt to ‘root’ it out of all European society - this is documented by the Wanssee agreement. Not only were Jewish families identified, the Nazis attempted to ‘map’ the entire genesis of Jewish being in Europe going back centuries. People who had converted, didn’t know of the Jewish roots were all documented.

It’s also really important, imv, we don’t get into a competitive tit for tat across atrocities. I’m not saying for a second that atrocities that happen in Africa are of less importance than atrocities in Europe - just that we assumed that our European societies had developed and established the mechanisms to prohibit them and that is one of the reasons.

It is also obvious to me as a Catholic that our faith sits in a blind spot against Jewish history - there’s a lot I’m learning. The orthodox Churches are the foundation of much intellectual thought and practice in Europe and we have to do the work to remedy the way we have positioned Jews outside of that ( historically).

Cannot the same be said for other nationalities? Yes but an East Asian person has an established identity within their home country ( with exceptions for some people such as Uyghurs, etc) - the uniqueness for Jews is that this isn’t extended in the same way.

There a long tradition of anti-semitism in the UK, and in western Europe in general. As a child I was very aware of it, and my grandfather originally contributed some of the material now shared on the British Police website http://britishpalestinepolice.org.uk/polhist44.html

It's nothing new here. I really think we're one of the most open and tolerant societies in Western Europe, but let's not pretend this does not exist.

Someone will come along and say, "but if you look at the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank", then yes I fully agree. It's an appaling system no doubt, and can't be compared to the UK. But there is nothing we can do about that directly, but we can aand should about anti-semetism here in the UK.

coupdetonnere

For me Brexit was a defining moment in giving those who have always been antisemitic, to give voice to it freely . The day after the referendum result, local Jewish businesses had swastikas and other abuse graffitied on their windows and walls. It felt like it gave people a mandate to more openly express how they really feel. Polish and other Eastern businesses and centres were also daubed and people yelled at to go home.

I and felt pretty safe as a British Jew but since Brexit very much less so, and since 7 Oct, very scared indeed. I went to the pub this afternoon and a young girl serving behind the bar, had a Magen Dovid necklace on and a hamsa tattoo on her arm. I was so full of admiration for her courage. I am no longer brave enough to wear mine in public but do wear my Hebrew name necklace on the basis many people aren’t familiar with what Hebrew script looks like.

They're aware. They've been told multiple times. They just enjoy minimising the impact anti-semitism has on innocent people. They like pretending it's not a big deal. And it seems they are now also enjoying pretending that we're all hypocrites.

Some people just really hate Jews and don't think we're worth even pretending to care about 🤷🏻‍♀️

Humdingerydoo. David Baddiel titled his book ‘Jews Don’t Count’ and the title well chosen as that’s the truth . We really don’t. We are the wrong type of ethic minority.

Whilst I agree antisemitism and other forms of discrimination are on the rise, David Baddiel isn’t a good choice in the fight against it. He was more than happy to encourage racism during the height of his fame.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/21/jason-lee-interview-david-baddiel-apology