To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

I think perhaps because it seems a little like deception. Women know an average man is a man and can react accordingly but a man who is presenting as a women is hiding their true sex in a vulnerable space and may catch others off guard.

A psychiatric ward is a professional environment with lots of other people in it. They have standards and procedures which don’t apply in random public toilets or changing rooms.

Men in mixed spaces with women- often not ideal. That’s why we set up single sex spaces- toilets, hospital wards etc.

Men in women’s spaces- not acceptable, call an organiser to have them removed.

Men claiming to be women in women’s spaces- suddenly a bit tricky.

Yeah there is. That's the whole point NO MAN, regardless of how he says he feels, should be given unfettered access to womens spaces.

I’ve never had a male doctor do something like a Pap smear or any other invasive exam without a chaperone in the room. There are protocols that are supposed to be followed to protect everyone. The patient from assault and the doctor from accusation.

but we all know they are inadequate.

Particularly spaces where women are vulnerable like hospitals. Periodically there will be stories of extremely vulnerable or even coma patients ending up pregnant because of hospital staff taking advantage of their access. I personally believe that male staffers, from janitor to senior physician, should not be allowed near an even temporarily incapacitated female patient without an escort.

A tw now is any male who simply says they are a tw. That's it. That's the only criteria to have organisations bending over. Any man therefore can say they're a tw. There is no obligation to make any effort to change your appearance or physiology in any way.
Organisations CAN use the equality act to protect single sex spaces, but they CHOOSE not to, presumably for social media clout or to avoid a drubbing by the blokes who want into rape shelters and female changing rooms. What females want and need is lower down the pecking order than what males want. Its sexism on steroids.

there has been a big out cry about hospital wards needing to be single sex for years. I remember working in mental health for example and campaigning about it in the 90s

tje first NHS constitution published in 2009 talked about the need for single sex wards

I’m rather surprised you missed all this

TW ARE men

Why are you differentiating between tw and men? They are exactly the same, that is, men. It's that simple. Doesn't matter how they identify, men shouldn't be in womens spaces.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean. The point is that NO MALE should be in a female only space that includes the ones who know they're men and the ones who want us to call them women.

If I go to the doctors for a smear test then I will only have that conducted by a female HCA, if that cannot be supported then I won't have a smear test.

If I were to be admitted to a women's psychiatric ward or hospital ward then I expect that all other residents of that ward be female. I would understand that some of the health care providers would be male but only for purposes outside of personal care, I would not accept being forced to have a male HCA conduct an intimate examination or deliver intimate personal care like washing or toileting.

What examples do you have of women campaigning for TW to be excluded from female spaces/services but allowing for men to be in those spaces/services?

But the point is when you are vulnerable you can't necessarily. Because you are too ill too or because you have to stay on a ward where they are.

It's not a 'professional environment' for a patient though is it? Any more than a random changing room. And has more unwell people than a changing room.

I think this post illustrates it - you suggest men in mixed psychiatric wards is 'often not ideal'.

But men claiming to be women in women's spaces - suddenly a bit tricky.

This 'tricky' situation happens much less often and ime is dealt with more robustly (and should be dealt with robustly) than the everyday experience and threat of men on a mixed ward.

But yet they they are everyday on mixed psychiatric wards. That's my point. I've never seen anyone raise it on MN, really.

I agree. But it's not just staff it is other patients that are the main threat.

I talking about what is happening on wards everyday in real life not about consultations or campaigns.

Hope you don't still work in MH and missed this.

I know. But when people talk about TW they mean a particular sub set of men opposed to the general population. Otherwise why the outcry about TW? Just talk about men.

That's fine. No need for the outcry about TW, we can just talk about men. I'll just say then why do people on MN often talk about men being in spaces where vulnerable women are but not about men being in these same spaces? Hope that makes it clear.

Because no one is campaigning for men who are not self-identified as trans to be able to enter women’s refuges, changing rooms and prisons.

Or for men in general to be able to compete in women’s sports.

A person saying they are a TW and then expecting to provide intimate care to a female because TWAW should be viewed with suspicion. It is completely different from a man who you can more easily object to.

If you were sectioned onto a psychiatric ward what effect do you think you 'expecting that all other residents were female' have on the actual reality? It would have no effect.

What I'm saying is what I see discussed on MN. As someone said upthread they didn't think it was 'ideal' for men to be in these spaces with vulnerable women. I've never seen someone say that about a TW being in a space with vulnerable women.

So because noone is campaigning for men to be in spaces with vulnerable women then it is ok that they are there?

I don't think I understand what you are asking. Men in mixed sex areas is fine. Men in a professional role such a male surgeon operating on a female patient, is also fine. The women will have consented to this.

Men in female only single sex spaces is the problem and most men are not asking to access those spaces. It's only transgender males and predatory males that want to access those space.

The two really big ones for me are women's refuges and prisons. Neither of which had any men housed in them and both of which are populated by vulnerable, disempowered women with very little to no choice of accommodation.

And were entirely single sex until recently.

Psychiatric wards should always have been and weren't, which is a fucking travesty. The issue is that vulnerable, mentally ill women aren't listened to at all.

So a vulnerable woman can more easily object to a man who identifies as a man assaulting her than a man who identifies as a woman?