To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

Yeah I sometimes wonder this too, especially in relation to healthcare and health professionals. There is often a lot of outcry about trans women accessing spaces like changing room or toilets for females (even those with individual private cubicles) because of ‘dignity and privacy’ (which is fair enough) but then there’s always backlash on threads where women oppose male doctors being present for intimate procedures or maternity care. If my dignity and privacy is compromised by males being in a space where I may be in a cubicle using the toilet or changing, then is it REALLY a stretch that it might also be compromised by males being present when I’m naked, exposed, in pain and putting their hands and fingers inside me etc.

The transgender issue has made people forget the men that vulnerable women have always been at risk of harm from.

"The transgender issue" with single sex spaces is literally only an issue because they are men. Like most of the women on FWR I fully believe that there is a public safeguarding duty towards vulnerable (and all other less vulnerable) women which means that all men should not be allowed in certain spaces. A "trans woman" is literally any man who claims to be one.

I do believe and have always believed that women in hospital need protection from predatory men. As pp have said, there were in the past promises made by the government for many more single sex wards. Those promises have been broken and people don't seem to be aware that they were ever made.

Whereas a rational fear response is appropriate given what cis men do

There's no such thing as "cis". Both those men and males who call themselves women are the same sex. I don't subscribe to your ideological beliefs.

That's good. And when you say 'NHS continual failure of their own single sex accommodation policy' - you mean the fact that there are mixed sex wards? I don't get why they have them if they are against policy. But I suppose it backs up what I say - it doesn't matter what the policy is. It matters what is actually happening day in day out.

Thank you for your kind advice ☺️

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, thank you for explaining that.

Yes. I mean mixed sex wards. I also linked the policy document to my post.

And yes, it is happening. And many of us have been aware and have been discussing and campaigning for many years regarding the issue.

Yes, I suppose that's it. It's in the media and politicians talking about it. But they don't talk about mentally unwell women.

My question is at what point do people see a transwoman as a woman? Is it when they start presenting themselves as a woman, is it after hormones, top or bottom surgery? Is it never?

Never. Because people can't change sex. It's amazing how brainwashed people have been. 29 years ago literally everyone knew what a woman was. What makes someone a woman hasn't changed, even if some people like to pretend it has. If a man can literally be a woman just by saying they feel like one, why can't an adult be a 6 year-old, or a cat, or a different race just by saying they feel like it? Woman isn't a feeling.

I think as the person said above it's hardly a hot topic is it?

I agree with you.

I don't have an assumption that women don't care about being in vulnerable spaces with men other than MTF so no need to look anywhere to see if that is true.

I think you're the one being goady. I'm fighting nothing. Just stating how I feel. And yes that is how I feel and I have a right to express it.

And I'm so glad you care about prisons and refuges but not women's psychiatric wards, unfortunately. Race to the bottom? Women with SMI are already at the bottom.

don't have an assumption that women don't care about being in vulnerable spaces with men other than MTF so no need to look anywhere to see if that is true.

You literally said exactly this in your OP. Stop being so disingenuous.

I'm not talking about single sex spaces. But spaces where vulnerable women are - in particular psychiatric wards. So the men are there legitimately.

From the OP:

But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

From my understanding of that this only refers to sleeping accomodation, it also says assessment units are exempt. So seems there's nothing to protect mentally unwell women at all.

Thank you. There's unfortunately not enough staff for that. I think single sex wards is the only solution.

Yes, this is true.

This is my point 'people don't even seem to be aware that they were ever made' - the issue I'm talking about is not on most people's radar unlike TW.

And I'm so glad you care about prisons and refuges but not women's psychiatric wards, unfortunately.

I quite clearly said I did in another post. As you acknowledged you aren't familiar with the discussions on this issue here and didn't look them up. Stop putting words into people's mouths.

From page 6 of that policy document -

'Women-only day rooms should be provided in mental health inpatient units.'

Assessment wards indeed do not seem to be included, within a period of 4 hours while a decision to admit is being made.

It's a shame nothing has been done. What is the point of a policy if it isn't followed?

This is my point 'people don't even seem to be aware that they were ever made' - the issue I'm talking about is not on most people's radar unlike TW.

And that's important, but please stop making assumptions about other posters and what they think.

What was so special about 29 years ago to be exact that 'everyone knew what a woman was?'

Everyone still knows what a woman is, they just pretend not to.

I beg your pardon? I said no such thing. Maybe read my OP again. You've clearly got an agenda that you want to tag onto my thread. Make your own if you want to do that.

I'm fully aware women care about being in vulnerable spaces with men other than TW. If you'd read the thread you'd know I'm one of those women as does every other woman who has been assaulted on a psychiatric ward.