To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

People have been up in arms about the need for single sex wards for literally decades

I worked in mental health in the 90s and we were campaigning for it then! I helped a woman who’d been assaulted by a man on the locked ward make a complaint against the hospital because they didn’t provide single sex wards

the need for single sex wards was put in the NHS constitution 15 years ago because of the campaigning that had been going on

No males, however they identify, on any wards or in any spaces or services for women.

You can't object to a man being on a mixed sex wards.

And I agree about it being rare for TW to make me think they are actually female. But most others on this thread do feel being tricked was a big reason for them feeling under more threat and then if they knew someone was a man they could defend themselves from then even in a vulnerable state.

I think we need to campaign louder and harder about mixed sex wards. No one in any state of vulnerability should be on a mixed sex ward, you are right op.
DD was in a mixed sex ward for investigation of suspected appendix, she was just shy of 16, I didn't leave her side and even stayed two nights with her just sleeping on a chair. I used to have to wheel her out to the main entrance where there were separate toilets for women because on the ward, although toilets were labelled male and female, everyone was just using whichever was free and the staff were obviously too busy/too few to monitor.
We wrote to our local councillor and MP shortly after but they both cited space and staffing as issues.

I don't think 'supposed to be' is good enough.

My one experience of a TW on a psychiatric ward is she got a lot of supervision (although was allowed in female only areas.) Men don't get any (and there's obviously a lot more of them.)

I think this is a part of the issue - TW shouting loudly. So everyone is looking at them but less at the 'normal' men. Like men get away with even more.

Yes, I understand some people think that.

But ime I was at less risk of harm from a TW on a psych ward than from the regular men.

No, not really.

I have a close friend who is a transwoman and all she wants to do is live her life. She doesn't want to harass other women/cause trouble or anything.

She poses no risk to other women when going to the women's loo, but she is under significant risk if she uses the men's.

Places like the gym/swimming pools are not something she engages in as she is vulnerable in those circumstances, so she also isn't going to turn up in changing rooms.

My question is at what point do people see a transwoman as a woman? Is it when they start presenting themselves as a woman, is it after hormones, top or bottom surgery? Is it never?

I've seen first hand what a transwoman has to go through to just live her life and it isn't pleasant or fun and certainly not something someone would do just to 'trick' or 'masquerade' it's because that's who they genuinely are.

I didn't mean to dance around it. And I suppose I'm talking about the last few years rather than 10 years ago. I feel I see a lot of posts about the risk to women on hospital wards from TW. But not about the (much greater) risk to women from regular men - at least on psychiatric wards anyway. I suppose it has made me feel that the TW issue has stopped people seeing the risk from regular men. As I said this is how I feel and it may not be objectively true.

What do you mean lied to get there? TW don't need to lie to get access to women only spaces do they? Not on psych wards anyway.

I don't see much about men in hospitals much less psychiatric hospitals. But lots about TW in hospitals. That's my impression but I could be wrong, of course.

They don't pass. They never did. No we were never OK with it, we preserved our own safety in the moment. Oh and look up AGP. You might learn something. Here you go

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4726257-nick-timothy-in-the-telegraph-on-the-grr

"Autogynephilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men. It is legitimate to ask whether non-consenting women ought to be participants in such sexual fantasies.""

I know. But when people talk about TW they mean a particular sub set of men opposed to the general population. Otherwise why the outcry about TW? Just talk about men.

It is not acceptable for men to enter certain spaces set aside for women, nor access women's services or facilities, for reasons which are absolutely clear to the majority of people.

But if these reasons are not applied to TW, and they are allowed to access to women's spaces whenever they like, why should these reasons be applied to other men any more?

Allowing TW access to women's spaces opens up the doors to all men.

We rarely need to fight for the right to keep men out of women's spaces. We will if some men are given this right.

Well, as I said NHS reports mean little to the vulnerable women actually being assaulted.

I've not said anything about stopping worrying about TW in women's spaces. But equally there are tonnes more men putting women at risk of harm on psych wards than TW. I agree both are important.

People never see them as a women, historically women were compassionate to vulnerable men but in trying to force kindness into law, that's been withdrawn.

It is really sad your friend has been sold such a lie and so many people cheered them on to live constantly chasing an impossible goal. I do have sympathy but I don't place blame in the same place you do.

It's irrelevant why they transitioned, it's just a red herring to act like women think TW transition to get to us. We don't care, I don't even think TW who are fetish driven are self aware enough to realise.

Are they really at risk in the mens? More than gay men, religious men, effeminate men who don't claim to be women, disabled men, men with learning difficulties?

Have you ever stopped to think about why you are outraged and fighting against women saying no and not about the men posing that risk?

It doesn't matter though if they want to be there if they're sectioned they have no choice.

And I'm not blaming individual men for being there. But I think it is reasonable to blame some of the men who assault the women.

I'm not sure what it was like 20 years ago but nowadays there's not enough staff to keep the dangerous men away from the women on a mixed ward even if there was anywhere to put them. You all have to share facilities.

Plenty on here have not seen a problem with men being on a mixed ward with women (someone said it wasn't ideal) but are completely opposed to a TW being around these women due to the women not realising they are a man.

Ok well, I was never assaulted by a TW but only by the regular men who may well have preferred a men only ward, who knows? They don't go around announcing it so you know who is 'a walking red flag.' And even if you knew they were a 'walking red flag' - nothing you can do about it anyway.

I don't think I'm conflating it. It just sometimes feels as if the world has forgotten about those vulnerable women being assaulted by men if they are not TW. That's just how it feels to me.

I think that is an important issue you raise about care homes. But it's as you say those with dementia are way down the pecking order as are women with serious mental illness.

The government made a big song and dance about re-introducing single sex wards and ending mixed-sex accommodation so that everyone would have safety privacy and dignity in hospital.

Then the NHS buggered it all up by making a policy that transwomen - and men who simply said they were transwomen - could choose which sex ward they were on. And not only that but if women complained about male people in their ward they would be told that there were no men in the ward and that the women who complained should be treated as transphobic.

I give you - Annex B https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

And for how it played out in reality - Baroness Winterbourne at 1.15 am
https://hansard.parliament.uk//lords/2022-03-16/debates/84C9B6AA-0214-4CEF-A41D-302373BDC190/HealthAndCareBill#contribution-2C34DA23-A5AD-483E-ACB8-AF8A5C547F73

There was a deliberate decision that the public should be lied to and told that all these wards were still single-sex because we wouldn't understand about gender. It's not just blokes lying, we know some them do that. It's the NHS lying. Nurses being told to lie to patients.

That's why we get extra-cross about it.

I'm sorry you experienced it too That's why they get away with it because as you say we generally don't have the capacity to complain. But I've not been able to forget.

@UndertheCedartree you're conflating 2 different (though related) issues.

Issue 1 - Should psychiatric wards be mixed sex - No, they shouldn't.

It's a safeguarding issue and a privacy/dignity/religious issue

Issue 2 - If a single sex facility has been made available, should TW be allowed to identify into the female facility - No they shouldn't

They are males, males do not belong in female spaces. Especially when the current situation is that women are not allowed to raise their discomfort or question this without being accused of being transphobic.

Where have I said we should be ok with pretending we think men can be women??

It might be whataboutery to you but funnily enough it's not ok for all the women being assaulted by these men.

It's not the men who say they're men whose crimes are being misrepresented as female crimes or being underreported. We know men assault women, it's being battled for decades and women have been campaigning for decades about it. The newest threat is the amount of men larping as women and having unfettered access to every single sex space and relishing in the fact that women can't do a thing about it!

It's about feeling that these women have been forgotten, I suppose. I mean sectioned women, yes. But those who aren't sectioned too as it often makes little difference - i.e your told you will remain informal if you stay on the ward but if you try to leave you will be sectioned. And it's about the existence of men being in any space with vulnerable women. I don't think mixed sex wards should exist because a vulnerable woman is hardly in a position to not consent in many situations. If your local hospital has mixed wards and you need treatment - what are you going to do?