To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

In the case of a psychiatric ward - there are shared facilities like lounge, dining room, OT room etc. So even with single rooms men still have access to women.

That's a very good point, and I'm sorry for your experiences I also know women in care who have had bad experiences with men in mixed-sex accommodation.

Trying to resolve the problem of men who claim to be women makes providing safe accommodation for women that much more complicated and difficult, espeically at the times when staffing is low and supervision is limited. If you aren't allowed to decide how to accommodate people based on their sex then it becomes harder to separate patients / residents so that the most vulnerable women who can't speak up for themselves are protected.

I'll have to have a search, thanks.

There's countless threads discussing single sex spaces and service, including inpatient mental health services, the NHS's continual failures of their own single sex accomodation policy and women across multiple health boards who have been subject to to institutional lies regarding the sex of HCP's. And those discussions focus around males, whoever they identify, being rightly excluded to ensure the safety and dignity of women.

@UndertheCedartree I'm not sure you're going to get much understanding with this thread and might tie yourself in knots continuously explaining.
Look after yourself, If its gets too hard going, report it and MN may pull it for you.

"AIBU to think there should be outrage at mixed sex psych wards?" may have been better received and then referring in the post to the TW situation and how you feel its relevant to your argument.

I'm not talking about decades ago, I'm talking about the experience in very recent times. And that's great it is in the NHS constitution but then what does that even mean if wards are still mixed? Doesn't seem the campaign was successful.

But for that woman you helped make a complaint there will be multiple assaults on every ward every day that are never complained about.

My question is at what point do people see a transwoman as a woman? Is it when they start presenting themselves as a woman, is it after hormones, top or bottom surgery? Is it never?

The last one. People really need to stop trying to compel people to share their faith based belief. They don't want to, because it doesn't make sense. No trans advocate can ever make a case for why I should give up my female only spaces other than "but my friend is lovely so you should!". Quite possibly they are, like lots of other males. Doesn't make any of them women.

Sorry meant to quote @Juicyj1993

Thanks @UndertheCedartree , I understand your thinking better now. And I'm really sorry for what you or your loved ones have been through.

I think sadly, women with psychiatric problems are very vulnerable and are probably easily overlooked by society at large. It does need to change.

I would also bet that many feminist campaigners feel frustrated and angry that they've had to dedicate time, energy and emotional energy fighting against trans ideology because it has robbed time from other important issues. I think they've chosen to fight this fight because if reason and science and law are trampled then there will be fewer protections for all women - whatever their social status.

If people tried to raise awareness about mixed sex wards today they would be accused of sounding the dog whistle against trans people. It's ridiculous.

Possibly a mixture of reasons, the anti-TW culture wars has made TW a hot topic. Also, men in safe spaces for women has always been an issue, it's just not been an issue for our media or politicians. As a pp said, there's also not been a movement advocating that all men should be accessing women's spaces. Actually, there may well be, but I'm not going to Google it.

The point I’m making is that we started campaigning about it years ago and we are still campaigning about it precisely because women’s suffering is still hand waved away or added to the list of things that they’ll get round to after (insert issue here) is dealt with

if women were actually listened to and taken seriously then men/TW wouldn’t be anywhere near women’s single sex wards

You're right.

I'm glad you were able to protect her. You wouldn't have been able to stay at all times on a psychiatric ward. And obviously lots of women don't have anyone to protect them.

NHS health trusts used to (until approx. 2020) be subject to a £250 fine of any breach to their single sex accomodations (with the exception of emergency care). The fine has since been dropped, despite the policy.

It might be whataboutery to you but funnily enough it's not ok for all the women being assaulted by these men.

As you said, OP you hadn't actually looked at FWR to see whether your assumption that women don't care about being in vulnerable spaces with men other than MTFs was true.

It isn't true at all. You're fighting a straw man, and it comes across as pretty goady to many of the women on MN who care about single sex spaces for vulnerable women, like women's prisons and women's refuges, as well as more everyday ones such as changing rooms and bra fitting services. It doesn't need to be a race to the bottom.

I would also bet that many feminist campaigners feel frustrated and angry that they've had to dedicate time, energy and emotional energy fighting against trans ideology because it has robbed time from other important issues. I think they've chosen to fight this fight because if reason and science and law are trampled then there will be fewer protections for all women - whatever their social status.

Exactly this.

I don't think most people ever see a TW as a woman. I personally don't think most would be able to 'trick' anyone anyhow, but the point is the person who does want to 'trick' is not distinguishable from your friend just wanting to live their life.

I wish your friend peace and freedom from harassment and a good life. But it can never come as the expense of women. TW have to carve out their own space. And that may be what your friend wants to do. Not all TW want to invade women only spaces.

But this isn't really the subject of my thread so perhaps you may want to start your own thread about it.

The intent of males who wish to be in single sex spaces created to protect girls and women. This is an answer to your question.

Some background. As a pp said, this conversation has been going on for years -

www.nursingtimes.net/archive/improving-patients-privacy-and-dignity-on-mixed-sex-wards-22-07-2007/

Despite this, there are still breaches of the policy (this is just a random example of one health board) -

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/20194175.oxford-university-hospitals-trust-breaks-single-sex-ward-rule/

The policy itself -

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

But men are already in spaces with vulnerable women.

I think it is exactly your point of view that is why I feel as I do.

On one ward I was on there was a TW. Extra safeguards were put in place. Because this was seen as an issue.

But the ordinary men? They were free to assault the women.

The transgender issue has made people forget the men that vulnerable women have always been at risk of harm from.

I am very sorry to hear that. The safeguards should have been the same for all men.

And all the while the vulnerable women are still being assaulted on their mixed sex wards no matter the song and dance.

And get how appalling that is what you set out. I don't feel it's something to be more cross about than what goes on on mixed sex psych wards every day of the week.

I understand they are separate issues.

Because TW are unfamiliar and trigger an irrational fear response.
Whereas a rational fear response is appropriate given what cis men do and have historically done, but oddly certain people find that convenient to ignore.
No 'seems' about it.

Oh I can assure you these men's crimes are not even reported.

And yes, some of the men in these cases also relish the fact women can't do a thing about it.