To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

There is very little support for single sex facilities for women so there is very little discussion about it.

The reason why so many discussions centre on self ID is because it is an emerging policy that for some inexplicable reason has cross party support. It involves changing the law to remove existing rights and safeguarding.
Once the law has been changed its going to be almost impossible to get back to this point.

I'm sorry you are upset about it, but the coming legal changes are a fundamental problem.

Just to be clear I'm not upset about there being discussions about self id etc.

But yes, upset if it is true there is 'little support for single sex facilities for women'. My impression is it isn't a priority for many posters.

However, I don't think many people are aware of the lack of rights and safeguarding there is for women in psychiatric hospitals - there's not much to take away if you tried!

Rape Crisis for England and Wales report from March 2024:

5 year period from 2017 to 2022 in NHS inpatient settings

56 gang rapes - that’s one gang rape per month

35,000 recorded cases of rape, sexual assault, harassment, stalking and abuse - that’s 20 recorded incidents per day

Perpetrators were both staff and patients

Women in inpatient mental health settings are being harmed now, in huge numbers

This is not caused by perceived existential threat to the notion of womanhood.

This is happening now.

It’s evidenced, extensively.

It could happen to you, or your daughter, mother, sister, friend.

How many threads or comments have you seen that mentioned this in MN as a whole, or on FWR where it’s supposedly all about safeguarding?

….

Right… because fanning the flames of fear about trans women is just so much more important than giving a shit about mentally ill women in the real world of inpatient wards.

Edit to add link
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/news/alarming-scale-of-sexual-violence-and-abuse-on-mental-health-wards/

As I've just explained, the first issue is an ongoing problem and the second is a proposed change in the law, which is being resisted.

In both cases women's voices are discounted, women aren't listened to, and there isn't much support for women who do want robust safeguarding and single sex facilities.

You (and very many others) seem to be choosing to put a lot of effort into speaking up against a proposed change with potential negative impact, that may never come to be, whilst putting no effort at all into speaking up against what’s happening now, and has been, for years.

It makes no objective sense - and it’s worth examining the phenomenon.

Who gains by having attention focussed on future possible harm over definite historic and current harm?

Who gains from drawing attention away from the weekly gang rape of a woman mental health inpatient in England and Wales?

Its sure as shit not the women inpatients, or the people who care about them, who know the danger they’re in and have exactly zero agency to do anything about it.

We arent drawing attention away from raped women. We are having the discussions, but very few people care enough to do anything about it. The petitions don't get much support, its the same names on every thread.

For some of us, we are the women at risk in those situations.

I believe the vast majority of assault/harassment is never reported.

There's probably 20 incidents per day per ward let alone for the whole of the NHS in England and Wales.

Yes, I understand that.

I don't think anyone is intentionally drawing the attention away. But I do think it is happening. All to the benefit of ...men, yet again! Just read the thread and see people do not think women having a single sex wards is a priority but safeguarding around TW is.

If you have a TW on your ward and then a member of staff has to do 1:1 with them, then that's one less member of staff to keep an eye on the rest of the men.

I'm sorry if you're another victim of assault on psych wards

Just going to come back on the question re why my friend is more at risk in mens' toilets than a gay man for example.

A gay man is physically presenting as a man, other men in the toilets might not know that they are gay and even if they did would he unlikely to care.

A transwoman is physically presenting as a woman, and therefore would stick out like a sore thumb in the men's loos, this could lead to questions being asked that could then lead to aggression.

I'm not outraged, nor am I 'fighting against other women', I just, to be honest, don't see the risk. If someone wants to sexually assault someone they will do it, the sign on a toilet door won't stop them.

There are far far easier ways for men who wish to attack women, than transitioning. Not only it is physically very hard work and expensive (NHS waiting times are huge and doctors can and do refuse referrals), my friend herself has been attacked and abused on multiple occasions. Surely if her end goal was to 'get to women' she wouldn't have bothered with all this.

Please stop derailing my thread. It is about vulnerable women. If you want to talk about your friend please start your own thread.

The problem with men in women's spaces, however they appear or self-describe, is the same as the problem TW claim to have in men's spaces: male violence.

Why is male violence women's problem to solve? Women are not service humans.

Which non trans identified men are in women only spaces?!?

I didn't say 'women only spaces' I said 'in spaces with vulnerable women.' Men are on psychiatric wards with vulnerable women.

Hi @UndertheCedartree having slept on it I hope I understand better where you're coming from, I didn't at first. I think the feminist focus has been on TW recently because the laws and policies have been changing around us and we've had to fight back urgently to stop bad rules getting even worse. But that doesn't mean that women don't care about other men being in places they shouldn't. It works both ways. My guess is that Baroness Nicolson raised TW and single-sex wards in the House of Lords because she already has concerns about single-sex hospital care not being implemented fully, and maybe if you and other women wrote to her she would take your story up too. And on the other hand, those of us who mostly started to worry about women-only services because of the publicity around TW, we are becoming of these wider issues. Knowledge sticks.

To be honest I think some of us oldies (and I mean me!) got a bit smug and thought the battles were all fought and won. This has been a wake-up call and what starts with worries about TW will ripple wider too.

Thank you for your kind and considered reply, I really appreciate it. Do you really think it's worth writing to Baroness Nicolson?

Definitely, she is wonderful

MIND the Mental Health charity might be a good place to get in touch with. They do campaigns and have (in the past) highlighted the mixed sex ward problem. I've read through their current recommendations for government 2024 and they haven't included it.

Although I think it might be the case that Govt are denying there is a problem eg "we've fixed that, there are regulations against mixed sex accommodation" but regulations don't help when they are breached all the time

I know, they've hardly fixed it if mixed wards still exist!

There was a boy in my hospital room. It didn't bother me at all

Did he try and assault you?

No of course not, why are you asking ?

Because that is probably why it didn't bother you!

that doesn’t mean it won’t bother other women.

nor does one good episode mean that there is no increase the risk of sexual assault with mixed sex spaces.

We aren’t looking at isolated incidents. We look at statistics overall to evaluate risk.