To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

I've never seen anyone raise it on MN, really.

I have.

A woman sectioned on a mixed ward will have consented to men being there? And even if she did (!) how does this protect her from assault?

The issue is biological men (including tw) being in women's spaces where they are not expected and as such where there may no supervision, and protective rules/safeguarding may be weaker. Tw are typically physically larger and stronger than biological females and thus could more easily overcome them.

Eg: mixed ward in a hospital: will have staff constantly present, rules and processes to ensure privacy for all.

Tw or any other biological male in the public toilets in the town centre? zero staff, no rules/processes to protect any vulnerable women. Women may even do things thinking they are safe - change rather freely in a women's locker room etc, on the basis they think they are in a space solely for women.

@UndertheCedartree are you deliberately misunderstanding posts and writing in a confusing manner?

I explicitly stated if I was admitted to a WOMENS psychiatric facility I would expect only female residents.

You removed the word Womens and then queried which thought my expectation should have any bearing on the situation.

If I am in a WOMENS only space then yes I expect that there will be no Males using it, I have consented and been informed that I will be in the presence of women only. Changing the scope of that to include Men/males removes my consent, and is contrary to the information provided to service users.

Yes, I don't think vulnerable mentally unwell women are listened to, at all.

How is it ok for men to be on the same wards as these vulnerable women?

Fair enough ☺️

Intent.

How is it ok for men to be on the same wards as these vulnerable women?

It's not.

Your premise is incorrect.

The issue IS with men being in women's spaces, and you do see the issue raised in all kinds of other contexts, on MumsNet and elsewhere. Even just here on AIBU (although more frequently on the Feminism and Women's Rights (FWR) board, because topics involving women's rights tend to get moved there) there are frequent discussions about whether it's OK for a lone dad to come into the women's changing room, loo, etc. with his daughter, and how old is too old for a male child to come into a women's space if he's out alone with his mum. Another frequent topic is the rush to move from single-sex facilities (both for women and for men) to unisex, when there is much evidence that these spaces are undesirable and more dangerous - for example, there are frequent threads (and even frequent coverage int he UK press, if you look) about the negative impact of single sex toilets on school children, disproportionately girls.

If you've missed this, you've missed the vast majority of the discussion around the issue, I think. However, the issue of trans people in spaces set aside for the opposite sex may stand out because of the insistence in certain quarters that trans people actually change sex. On FWR, you'll repeatedly see posters explaining patiently that no one wants to exclude people from single sex spaces because of bing trans, but rather because of being male when the space or service is set aside, for good reason, specifically for women. I see this explained virtually every time I read FWR - to the extent that the failure to understand, or frequency of misinterpretation and misrepresentation, almost begins to seem willful.

I am not convinced you have posted this thread in good faith.

As an example I had to have a breast ultrasound, it was partly carried out by a man. I was given the opportunity to not let him do it, if it was a TW then I would not be given that opportunity. I would then question why, out of all the roles that could be done, they had chosen that when the women are in an incredibly vulnerable place.

Yes she can when NHS guidance says that anyone who objects to a transwoman being on a female ward should be treated in the same way as a racist objecting to a black woman on the ward

Because no one's being tricked.

I will add, for clarity, that all my mammograms have been carried out by women. It was only the further ultrasound that was done by a man.

I think the OP is in a clumsy way trying to raise awareness that psychiatric wards are mixed sex. And that women who are sectioned haven't given their consent to be on this mixed-sex ward.

I haven't heard of this going on, and would have assumed psychiatric facilities had single -sex wards with perhaps mixed-sex communal spaces and therapy groups.

If that's not the case, then I think it is wrong and an obvious safeguarding issue.

Although I might not be understanding the OP

I agree that psychiatric wards should not be mixed.

I have seen threads on MN about it.

However, because they are, I would expect protocols to be in place to protect women from men there. I accept they may not work. As I said, I don’t think they should be mixed.

However, it is a different issue with transwomen. Because in those situations (eg in women’s prisons, strip searching females in custody, getting a transwoman instead of a female HCP) women are being told just to suck it up. No additional protocols or safeguards necessary. Nothing to see here.

If you are trying to say psych wards ETC. should be single sex, why not just say it?
It is wrong to compare with TIM who are actively campaigning to enter women's spaces where there are less protection and protocols to prevent harm.

I think the first poster nailed it.
A biological man Is a man, he's not pretending to be anything else so women are on the alert, a male doctor will need a chaperone to perform personal tests on a female patient.
A TW is also a biological male but is presenting as a woman so biological women in general don't know that they need to be alert because they are expecting a woman but actually the two is a man instead.

Males should not be in the small number of spaces that are single sex for a reason. Eg female prisons, hospital wards, domestic violence shelters, or performing intimate exams/strip Searches where the person has asked for a female. The only males in these spaces are the ones pretending to be women. No other males are allowed in. That's the problem.

I think the issue is: I can object to a man being in my space or wanting to do a smear test.

I can't object to a transwoman being in my space or wanting to do a smear test because I am supposed to accept that they are female.

(it's very rare for a transwoman to "pass" so I don't think anyone is deceived, they're just not "allowed" to say anything)

We absolutely complain about men in psychiatric wards- I was shocked to discover they could be mixed. I learned that here.

But those places are at least supposed to be supervised and women are supposed to be protected. When men are placed in single sex spaces because they claim to be women, the supervision structures are not in place. So you get men unsupervised in women’s prisons, men searching women prisoners, men insisting women search them.

That shitty Scottish prisoner who insisted on being searched by women when he was phenomenally dangerous even to men.

Mixed ward in a psychiatric hospital - privacy for all?! Not really. But it's about much more than that.

Maybe many people simply aren't aware that there are men in psychiatric wards with women. We are very aware about TW in women's spaces because they are often spaces that most women frequent at least sometimes (public toilets, changing rooms etc). Also, TW have spent the last few years shouting loudly about how they are entitled to be in our spaces. I've never been on a psychiatric ward and I didn't know that they were mixed. Men shouldn't be in women's spaces, whether they are TW or not.

You didn't say a 'women only' psychiatric facility.

Obviously a mixed facility is a women's facility and a men's facility.

And as I am specifically talking about men in spaces with women not women only spaces, I didn't realise you were talking about a 'women only' space.

And as I said when you are sectioned you don't get asked for consent or informed of anything.

Meaning what?