To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

I'm so confused.

OP, what is your actual point?

I think it is that mixed sex in psych units are BAD things.

Have I understood you correctly? That's your whole point?

If so, pretty much everyone here agrees with you, as far as I can tell. Other posters are also concerned about other mixed sex areas. Are you pissed off at that?

@UndertheCedartree I think you’l find that many people (women) are very concerned about mixed sex wards, in general medicine and particularly in psychiatry.

@CocoapuffPuff the law is such a mess that many organisations err on the side of open access to all/mixed sex facilities, to avoid breaking the law and to tick diversity and inclusion boxes. It’s also cheaper to provide one set of services.

Organisations like Stonewall also mislead the bodies that they advise on the law.

I don't agree with mixed wards. I think all sleeping areas or areas where people are vulnerable should be single sex. Just as I don't think children and unrelated adults should share those spaces.

But if there is a space that has been agreed to be needing to be single sex for safety/privacy. Then it seems logical that those spaces should be kept single sex.

We all agree that open changing areas and showers should be single sex, so why would we start mixing them? The sensible answer is that if a person isn't accommodated by the existing areas then a new area needs providing for them. We all have a right to feel safe. So we need to be doing more to keep everyone safe. Which is actually a much bigger issue than just providing areas to protect people from male violence, the core issue is that no one feels safe around men, so that needs addressing.

What is wrong with you? My grammar was perfectly correct, thank you.

As you see I said 'there only seems outrage' - I didn't specify that this was by women nor did I suggest said women didn't care about vulnerable women in this situation. There is a degree difference between outrage and care. I also carefully used the word 'seems' which suggests this is how it feels to me but may not objectively be true. I made no assumptions about anyone unlike you.

I assume you've not read the thread, then. But no you've not understood.

My point was it feels to me the trans issue has eclipsed the issue of men in spaces with vulnerable women. As I said there were more safeguards for a TW on a psych ward than for the general population of men.

Why would I be pissed off about other posters being concerned about other mixed sex areas?

That's good to know. I suppose the fact that nothing seems to change contributes to my feeling. There needs to be policy change. But unfortunately most women in this space are not in a position to do much to change this.

There needs to be policy change

the policy & legislation to provide single sex wards is in the equality act 2010. It already exists. The problem is not that it doesn’t exist, the problem is that the NHS like many other organisations has been trained by stonewall backed up by activists at all levels to believe you can’t provide single sex services

Yes, those spaces should be kept single sex but also women should be protected from men everywhere.

What do you mean by 'the core issue is no one feels safe around men, so that needs addressing'? Addressing in what way?

On a psych ward I don't think it can be addressed. Women just need protecting from the men.

Most of us do. I'm forever making the distinction. I mean men, no matter how they identify.

I think you may just have missed exchanges where this distinction is made. That and, after posting it a thousand times, we all get lazy.

The same with 'trans rights'. We aren't discussing those. We are talking about women's rights. But most media channels won't say that.

So yes, we do indeed mean men. No matter how they identify. Men.

Yes I've read the thread, don't be so fucking patronising. You want women protected everywhere. So do I. You sound like you've had some truly terrible experiences and that's awful. I personally don't distinguish between tw and men. The only factor all tw have in common is that they are men. The only thing tw have in common with women is that they are human.

Most psych wards have private rooms with en suite for each patient, (tiny room that's more a cell but it is private, apart from the staff watching your every move) hence why the activities etc are mixed but you sleep in a lockable room. The staff are trained to deal with extreme violence etc, so I really don't think it matters if there was trans people, or men there. The one I went to was mainly women, just by the nature of the illness, but there were some men. Lots of psych nurses are men also.

That wasn't my point. My point was I was differentiating between TW (a subset of men) and the general population of men. I used the label 'TW' to make that clear. But apparently I should have just said 'men'.

Somebody posted the policy. There was nothing in it about single sex wards for women in psychiatric hospitals.

I'm not being patronising, I just stated an assumption that I'd made as I thought the point would have been pretty clear of you'd read it. It's hardly an unfair assumption hence RTFT.

I distinguished for ease of discussion. So for example when I said there were extra safeguards put in place for the TW on the ward. If I'd just used the word 'man' it wouldn't have made clear what I meant.

I'll tell you why I think it matters because women are assaulted on these wards on a daily basis.

Yes, you may at night sleep in a single room (not lockable by you) or a women's dorm. But what about when you are in the lounge during the day and drift off due to the sedative effect of your medication.

Beside that there are a lot of other places you can be assaulted. In the corridors, the dining room, the garden, the laundry room and the OT room.

The staff are trained to deal with extreme violence. They're trained to deal with it once it happens. That's too late for the woman. And what about sexual assault?

A friend of mine is a retired psych nurse.
He worked on a mixed sex ward where occasionally TW were admitted. He always said there were the old school transsexuals who posed no risk to women and were happy to use the few segregations based on sex (loos, bathroom, they tried to separate the sexes on wards as much as possible), and the transvestite type who were often a risk to women as they insisted on invading their space and were getting a kick out of doing so. He said this type of TW would usually be moved to single sex wards in a different hospital, or into a private room if no transfer was available.

He used to be a TRA, a real lefty TWAW type, who would go to protests, shout down women who were trying to protect single sex spaces, thought that transitioning made men weaker than women.
His dawning realisation was when he started to recognise the behaviour of very vocal TW (interestingly not of TM or female NBs) as identical to that of the transvestite types who were admitted to the psych ward. From that moment he was GC.

A man pretending to be a woman feels more of a threat to some women because it’s deceptive, it’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing scenario, and there’s a huge expectation that they are to be treated as one of the girls, sometimes in spaces where women are particularly vulnerable. A man presenting as he is is still a potential threat, but there’s no dishonesty, no pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes, you can ask them to leave a room and be seen by a female HCP or have a chaperone. Asking the same of a TW is rife with accusations of transphobia nowadays, even though it’s clear to all that they are men.

It doesn't matter if they have a private room - they don't have to stay in it. They'll still have all the same opportunities as the other men to assault the women.

That's interesting your friend's realisation.

My experience of a TW on the ward was 'she' was allowed a bedroom on the women's corridor but had a 1:1 always. I suppose it made the threat from 'her' more obvious than the other men and of course we were more safeguarded from her although she was on the women's corridor! 'She' wasn't treated as 'one of the girls' because she clearly wasn't. 'She' was a man wearing a dress.

You can't ask a man to leave a room on a mixed psychiatric ward as they are there legitimately. You can't ask for a chaperone.

But I take your point when in a vulnerable state you may be deceived by a TW.

The intent is the difference. Dr's, nurses, firefighters, teachers in SEN schools, prison staff are party to strict vetting for professional registration. So, would have to be highly motivated and dangerous and organised to slip past that system. Unfortunately cases like Wayne Couzens, Harold Shipman and others exposed the weaknesses in channels for reporting concern and info being shared nationally. Many males with autogynophilia and other sexual fetishes claim trans identity but have the INTENT of causing harm to females for sexual gratification.

I'm talking about the other patients not the staff.

And when a woman is being assaulted does it really matter the intent? She is still assaulted just the same?

You're misunderstanding my point I think. If someone is being assaulted then harm and assault was the intent. Women and children can't know which men pose the dangers but those with AGP are particularly sexually motivated. Hence, single sex spaces are a safety requirement.

@UndertheCedartree you are absolutely right on this.

For all the countless MN threads and comments on trans women placed with or amongst vulnerable women there are almost none, ever, on the vastly bigger impact of men in those exact same spaces.

Male patients
Male prison officers
Male police officers

Sexual assaults on vulnerable women by men legitimately there have a massively bigger impact on a societal level and a personal level.

But hey, why mention those when it’s so much more clickbaity to talk about bearded men in dresses

Sorry, what is AGP?

And the particular trouble on psychiatric wards is men are often disinhibited in a violent and/or sexual way. Which makes them a particular threat to women. So why don't single sex spaces appear to be a safety requirement for them?

AGP is the big bad wolf of trans women - a label you can throw on them to make them sound scarier and more threatening to women than, say, a paranoid schizophrenic who is on record as having plans to hurt women, but still gets to sit next to you for lunch on the psych ward.

Yes, women are assaulted by the men legitimately there day in day out, all day long.

How often are TW assaulting women in these circumstances? It's not like there's even just one TW on most wards for a start off.

Just to be clear I'm not saying I don't agree with some of the points on here about keeping women safe from possible predators using 'trans' as a way to get to women. This is important.

I think it just feels like TW issues have eclipsed the danger that was always there. It seems crazy to me that despite people saying they have campaigned for single sex wards in psychiatric hospitals nothing has been done.