To wonder why there only seems outrage about TW in spaces where women are vulnerable and not men in general?

[UndertheCedartree]

As I've said 'seems' it might not actually be the case. But I read a lot on here about it being wrong to allow TW where women are vulnerable. For example just read about a TW being an HCA to a woman.

But what doesn't seem to be discussed is men being in these spaces. For example men being on a psychiatric ward with women? There doesn't seem to be an outcry about that? Why not?

@UndertheCedartree

Do you understand that we're supposed to treat "trans women" like women at all times, even though they are not? Trans rights supporters, of which there are many in every public service or private company, believe no one should ever be allowed to "invalidate" their gender identity as "women", so they don't look kindly on women saying they aren't comfortable with these men using our spaces, and at times it's even considered to constitute hate speech.

Absolutely not. Most of the men are other patients.

It sounds like you want to create a thread about single sex hospital wards, so maybe do that OP?

I have seen discussion about boys in women's changing rooms.

And the talk about unisex facilities often is revolved around TW too.

I don't claim to be aware of all discussion that goes on. As I said that was just how it 'seemed' to me.

Also most who have replied have said they see the TW situation as more of an issue which supports this.

There are loads of posts outraged about mixed sex spaces on every platform and have been for at least 10 years.
OP what point exactly is it you want to make? There's a reason you have chosen psychiatric wards to highlight. Why are you dancing around the point you want to make?

Why not?

In some situations vulnerable women do not get the choice to not be around men.

I can assure you when you are being assaulted 'NHS guidance's means nothing.

The trans issue is a subset of the men issue. There are plenty of threads about men- about justice, about crime, parenting, about responsibility… loads of them.

Men in psychiatric wards is a subset of mixed wards. The difference between men in mixed wards and transwomen in women’s wards is whether the man has lied to get there.

This.

There's been LOADS about this issue.

And that’s an issue to raise in its own right- and regularly is. It’s not a reason to stop worrying about transwomen in women’s spaces.

Both things are important.

I think the issue is that most men do not want to be in women's spaces. Decent men would also like to be on single sex wards. When men and women are mixed in hospital, it's like everyone getting a bad deal together, you can't actually blame the individual man.

I think it's a terrible thing though, although my experience of mixed wards is that the person of opposite sex will be in their own room not in the same actual room, just same corridor. It awful if it's more mixed than that. I did work, 20yrs ago, in a psychiatric hospital and any slightly risky men were all grouped together far from women. The only mixed wards were pretty much bed bound.

I have never ever seen anyone saying men can come in a female space but not TW, that's disingenuous phrasing on your part to imply that.

The difference between the two...

A man who is equally uncomfortable in womens spaces, understands the need for womens spaces, doesnt want to be in womens spaces and wants a man's space, are not the men to be concerned about.

The men who want to be in womens spaces, under any guise necessary, and claim women are bigoted not to allow them to, are the walking red flags.

Funny too, how TW claim to "feel unsafe" in a space with men, so the men in dresses demand access to womens spaces, but if women say they feel unsafe in a space with men including the ones larping as women, we're ridiculous, scaremongering, hysterical terfs who are just man hating, genitial fetishists.

@UndertheCedartree - I think you are conflating two different issues - women/vulnerable women being assaulted by men and TW having access to women’s spaces.

Of course all violence against women (and men tbf) is wrong and is acknowledged as being so. However, gender self id means that men who would have been arrested for being a peeping tom/flasher/lewd behaviour a few years back are now welcomed into women’s spaces. It’s utterly abhorrent.

I’ve mentioned on here before about care homes. Many many carers are young men. Women residents will often say “female carers only” which is adhered to if the resident has their facilities. But if the woman has dementia or is “locked in” due to stroke etc, men will be permitted to carry out personal care. This is in part due to staffing numbers meaning that if half the carers are male, there are not enough female carers to do all the care.

I would also mention that most of these young men are foreign and it is well documented that scrupulous “agents” are recruiting unsuitable men without the proper caring experience /background knowledge and police checks. The care homes turn a blind eye as they just want cheap labour. It’s something that distressed me greatly in a previous job. But elderly with dementia are way down the pecking order.

And before anyone jumps in with “you lost me at foreign” - this is not about race, it’s about men being employed without the necessary robust police checks.

But vulnerable women are still extra vulnerable around men. And they can trick you in other ways.

Agree with @Storyland is that what you mean? @UndertheCedartree
And, yes, you are right and there definitely should be more complaints made.
These are 2 separate things though, there is atm uproar about TW in womens spaces BUT there should also be uproar about men (any men) in spaces where women are vulnerable (as these are not "women only spaces")

I'm guessing you (or a close friend/relative) has some experience (as do I and yes, it was worrying but I didn't have the capacity to make any complaints and just wanted to forget the whole experience.
to you if you have gone through similar

But vulnerable women are still extra vulnerable around men. And they can trick you in other ways.

Whataboutery. I assume you're trying to make the case that because especially vulnerable women can't say no to those men, we should all be ok with pretending we think men can be women. It isn't ok for most women though.

I don't think that women should be on mixed sexed wards unless they have consented.

So this thread is specifically about women who are sectioned being put on a mixed sex ward?

But does this mean single sexed patients or single sexed staff? For example, the QE hospital in Glasgow is all mixed sex wards but all the wards are single roomed (exceptions such as intensive care units where patients won’t be in single rooms). So single sexed-patient wards is not possible and not needed.

Since nursing is predominantly female (only around 6% of nurses are male), it would be impossible to staff wards for men with male staff only - and women with female staff, IYSWIM?

Yes, I'm probably being very clumsy.

But it was just my thought process after reading about another situation with TW being discussed.

I just thought I've not as far as I can remember seen it being discussed much about men in spaces where women are vulnerable. And the big one for me is psych wards. I know myself and others have talked about it in passing occasionally.

It's not that I don't support the TW debate - I do. But I suppose to me it seems everyone's looking at the one TW in the whole hospital all the while the rest of the men are free to assault the women as they like. Just how it is seeming to me.

There are very little protocols as far as I am aware. But if there are, they don't work.

Women are told to just suck it up on psych wards too.

But of course that is outrageous about those situations you mentioned.

I've been through IVF and every doctor I saw was male.

Obviously egg collection there are numerous people there but for the daily trans vaginal ultrasounds it was usually just me and a male doctor.

I'm just saying what I feel. Yes they should be single sex. But I'm saying I wonder why people aren't up in arms about it like with the TW issue. On psych wards the men don't have to campaign as they are already there with few protections to prevent harm to women.

It has been raised in the FWR section particularly on the S&G section.

There should not be mixed wards in ANY hospital psychiatric or otherwise.

Unfortunately unwell women are not always able to be on high alert. They may fall asleep for example. And while a male doctor may need a chaperone, a male patient needs no such chaperone.

I'm not talking about single sex spaces.

I said spaces where there are vulnerable women. So mixed sex wards.