to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

Oh, I am so exhausted with having to prove to people like you that a person who I love deserves the right to exist! No matter what I tell you or how many studies I make reference to, you'll still ignore them and demand that my loved one and the family members of other people conform to your definition of what they should be based on your narrow perception of how human beings are formed. Why can't you just let trans people exist? Why are you so desperate to force the person I love into hiding and misery because you want them to confirm to your idea of biological perfection? The answer to your question is actually irrelevant anyway. My loved one is a particular gender despite their biology because gender is a social construct just like religion and they deserve the right to decide how they want to live just the same as any other human being.

Of course they have the right to exist. Of course they should be free to be whatever 'gender' they wish.

But they can't change sex. That's a simple matter of fact. Humans come in two sexes and can't switch.

What we want is to break the link between sex and 'gender'. As women cultural gender constructs tend to limit us.

Your loved one wasn't born in the wrong body! No one here wants them to change that, they shouldn't have to.
That doesn't need changing. It's those cultural gender boxes that need breaking down, Your loved one should be accepted in society for who they actually are.

I can play that game too.

My experience was very different.

Before the much more recent popularly of this cause, one of the old pro trans support groups looked at the impact on the wives of transitioners.

It found an exceptionally high number ended up having mental breakdowns.

No one has ever done a proper study on the impact to family members and the trend of 'be kind' has made it increasingly taboo for the children, wives and siblings of transitioners to speak freely. They are held hostage by the emotional blackmail of their family member AND the social pressure to 'be kind' and accepting.

If you read the trans widow threads it's illuminating.

Jan Morris is often held up as an example of 'true trans' and how wonderful they were. Then you read the account of the impact on their daughter's life and again, it's illuminating.

The demands it places on family members are not insignificant.

I dislike this whole 'and they lived happily ever after' narrative if you are just accepting.

The trouble is many existing family dynamics are unhealthy regardless of trans. If this is the case and someone comes out as trans, why should you suddenly defer to that family member? This assumes that the dynamics of 'be kind' can't be weaponised by narcissistic family members. This is the ignorance of the privileged.

Agree. Why are these posts all over Mumsnet when there is an area for them? It wouldn't be allowed for any other topic.

I added my opinion to the OP's post and I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy - if you're unable to accept that and would rather force them to conform to your definition of what they should be, it says a lot about your moral compass and rest assured, they won't be forced into a miserable existence or even death as long as I have breath in my body.

These people with opinions shouldn't be allowed here.

It might mean I read the thread. And post on it.

I too can be a grammer grammar pedant but ‘they’ has a legitimate use for a single person. Eg ‘When a customer comes into the store, your job is to look after them and find out what they need’.

We use it when we talk about a hypothetical person or a person whose sex we don’t know. So you might object to using it for a person whose sex you do know, but the single/plural argument doesn’t really work.

I’m gender critical anyway so I’m not a fan of they/them for other reasons, but I do mostly use the pronouns people ask for (unless I think they’re a dickhead).

Exactly my point! Religion is also a social construct and most reasonable people agree that people should be allowed to follow the belief system which is right for them. Most reasonable people would not accept or condone the persecution of a group of people for their religion so why are they seeking the persecution of trans people?

No one wants to 'persecute trans people'.
The analogy women see here is more that no religious group should be privileged over another and be allowed to demand they use the worship spaces built by and for someone else.

It's incredibly sad you're not seeing we're all actually agreeing with this.

You’re clearly not listening to people at all. No one cares what your family member wears or wants to call themselves, they can live their life how they want, UNTIL they start trying to force everyone to believe that they’ve literally changed sex and must now have access to womens spaces and sports. You don’t get to redefine women, 51% of the population just because your unhappy being born male.

I hope your family member lives a long and happy life.

What are the other sexes called please?

Well you can, of course, be fired for holding those beliefs. It would be unlawful, but still happens. It’s why many GC women are not out at work.

Anyway YANBU OP. I’m well and truly over it and the “debates” and the “being kind” and just think the whole thing is a lot of absolute shite now.

I think the days of getting all these threads booted off aibu are long gone by the way.

I added my opinion to the OP's post and I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy - if you're unable to accept that and would rather force them to conform to your definition of what they should be, it says a lot about your moral compass and rest assured, they won't be forced into a miserable existence or even death as long as I have breath in my body.

Looking down the 1st page of AIBU right now, most of the threads could go into a dedicated topic - films, politics, relationships etc. Have you been onto all those threads and told them they're in the wrong place?

Such dramatics, it really doesn’t help anyone 🙄

I added my opinion to the OP's post and I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy - if you're unable to accept that and would rather force them to conform to your definition of what they should be, it says a lot about your moral compass and rest assured, they won't be forced into a miserable existence or even death as long as I have breath in my body.

No one has said your family member doesn't have the right to exist @Crispsandcola, I'm really not sure where you're getting that from tbh (and yes I have read the whole thread).

You just made a statement that there were more than two sexes and posters have asked you for evidence of this. Them asking the question of you is absolutely not tantamount to denying your relative the right to exist at all.

This is part of the problem though. When people make statements that are demonstrably untrue, TRAs have empowered them to scream out that even questioning the statement is transphobic when it's not. Anyone making a statement they claim is backed by evidence should be able to show that evidence. It's not an attack on you or your family member whatsoever.

Absolutely no one is trying to say that people who identify as trans can't exist or can't be part of society. They just need to abide by the same rules as everyone else, and part of that is to respect that for very good reason, some aspects of society are sex segregated. Taking on or believing in a gender identity doesn't and shouldn't exempt you from abiding by this.

I added my opinion to the OP's post and I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy - if you're unable to accept that and would rather force them to conform to your definition of what they should be, it says a lot about your moral compass and rest assured, they won't be forced into a miserable existence or even death as long as I have breath in my body.

We don't want to force them to be anything. They should be themself.
Reality is a bugger, it's biology not other people which made us an immutably dimorphic species.

If you mean we might want a change in behavior of some trans people, the ones who don't respect women's rights (or even 'right to exist' as a class!) - well, that's a rather different matter isn't it.

Expecting me to lie to validate someone’s own sense of self is not kind. I am not being kind to myself by lying and I value myself and my right to speak truth more than the feelings of trans people.

Of course there are only 2 sexes. I was brought into being by a male sex cell fertilising a female one and being carried in a female’s womb. As were you. As was every other one of the 7 billion people on earth. Where are these other sexes?

'It doesn't hurt you so why do you care'

And yet there are countless posters telling women (the sex who produce large gametes) that they shouldn't be posting in AIBU, to 'off you pop to another board' - ie shut up and go away women. These are people trying to silence an opinion contrary to their own.

It does hurt me - it hurts me to tell me to lie, 'to reject the evidence of my eyes and ears'

It hurts me to see children physically and psychologically damaged - damage that they will have their entire lives. It hurts me to not be able to shout out that this is dangerous madness because the NHS has adopted this ideology and is promulgating it without allowing any dissent.

i am hugely supportive of anyone's rights to identity differently but like so many other women have concerns about women only safe spaces and their abuse. People can change gender but not the sex they were born into. i struggle with the 'they pronoun' which is ridiculous and confusing because it is supposed to represent the plural. Such s shame there isn't a singular pronoun in our language - the Spanish have he, she and 'usted' which is gender neutral and which has a plural form ( ustedes). Must be so much easier to deal with than in our language. We just had a trans relative visit. Their name change was fine and fully embraced - the they thing hugely difficult

I agree, gender ideology is very much a religion and one I don't subscribe to.

Nobody wants to force anyone into a miserable existence or deny that they exist. I also think most people agree that it’s important to be courteous in inter-personal situations.

But there are only two sexes and society rightly makes certain constructions such as same-sex facilities to recognise that there’s a difference between men and women and that difference is important. A man is not and can never be a woman. It is the demand that men are allowed to access women’s spaces that is being objected to here.

Why are you talking over me and telling me my actual experience in life hasn't happened and isn't relevant?

bahahahahahaha. The absolute IRONY!!!

More people need to see this. Too many people are too brainwashed to go to the other section because they think it's 'transphobic' so people aren't aware of what is going on, and they NEED to be.