to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

I don't actually believe homosexuality is a 'wiring defect' or whatever tbf but I'm also prepared to consider that my views may well be affected by social conditioning.

Of course we can't treat transwomen exactly the same as real women for the obvious reason we can't have 19 stone blokes playing rugby with women, amongst other reasons. But if we suddenly discovered it was a brain development issue I imagine there would be a lot more empathy and less talk of fetishes, perversions, and power plays.

Focusing on toilets etc is more the logical conclusion/end point and will be an issue no matter what the actual cause of gender dysphoria is.

Do you believe trans women are women, ie that womanhood is somthing mental not physical, or do you believe that womanhood is physical, ie having a female body, and trans women are men who, perhaps due to something misfiring in their brain, genuinely believe that they are women?

“But if we suddenly discovered it was a brain development issue I imagine there would be a lot more empathy and less talk of fetishes, perversions, and power plays.”

Why?

If a physical brain development issue was discovered but fetishes, or paraphilias, and misogyny were still hugely prevalent in those male people who had that brain development issue, why would and why should discuss about it stop?

Besides which, are you incorrectly predicting that this would be a physical brain development issue for all those male people with trans identities or just a sub-group? What do you suggest will happen to all those male people with trans identities that don’t have that issue? Will one group wear a badge to use single sex spaces meant for female people? Will that badge be somehow integrated into a body so it will never be forged, stolen or transferred?

Or will a law then dictate that all those without the brain development issue will have to give up their transgender status?

It really doesn’t matter whether a cause is now found. This has moved on significantly, and I doubt it will be changed. Because how can you change it back to only a group of people with a medical cause ? No amount of building false equivalences, predicting invented findings changes material reality as it stands now.

I believe the latter is possible. Defo not the first.

I think the ones who believe they are actually women are bonkers, but I think it's possible that there may be a cognitive reason for why some feel disorientated in a male body, just like how I believe there may be a scientific explanation for homosexuality. I feel like sexuality is often innate - it certainly is in most mammals.

No offence, but I'd be more inclined to engage if you didn't ask me seven questions in one post, some of which are separate discussions in their own right.

Fab. Another excuse for not reading and engaging on certain points.

I think we see the pattern.

I am not offended.

However they are questions (albeit with typos) that all relate to your suggestion. What does it matter that they can be separated out and may seem to be unrelated in your eyes? You can post answers in a single post or in different posts.

The point is to explore how you see your thought working because you suggested it would make a difference. My questions all relate to how it would make a difference given the current situation.

More than anything this post highlights how complex society is, if you didn’t care you wouldn’t post reciting your thoughts on it.

I work with 16 year olds in my day to day job and the pronoun debate is rife, not in a negative way but in an open discussion regarding identity.

Science and biology are a very small part of what makes up a human being. As someone who identifies as she and a woman I do not feel threatened by a rise in young people wanting to explore themselves and what they identify as but intrigued that you can navigate life without suppression and fear of rejection for being honest.

Perhaps we can all agree shame is what drives posts like this, traditional views will always get air time but positivity could go a long way when respecting individual rights.

Perhaps we can all agree shame is what drives posts like this

No we obviously can't all agree with that.* *

No offence, but we’d be more inclined to believe risible excuses if we had come down in the last shower.

As someone who identifies as she and a woman sadly tells us nothing about whether you are female and actually a woman, Biscuits. Would other people automatically identify you as a woman?

I disagree with the ideology too.
It impacts the most vulnerable in society. Women in prison, rape shelters, autistic kids and confused kids who will probably just grow up and be gay.

To me it's a luxury belief and all very gaslighty.

. As someone who identifies as she and a woman

i work with a man who identifies that way

And?

"traditional views"

No sorry.

It's not an optional belief to ignore sex.

Biological still matters regardless of what you believe. Unfortunately this is important when you have medical needs.

Can we stop it with this baloney that it's old fashioned to recognise that your biology doesn't give a shit how you identify. It's not a generational difference in culture.

Well it is. It's victims who have bought into the latest medical scandal.

Because biscuits waxing on about identifying as she & a woman tells me absolutely nothing about biscuits sex

biscuits might be an adult human female or like my colleague a bloke

i couldn't give a fuck what my colleague wears or calls himself but he’s a man. Tje idea that it’s shame that makes me recognise he’s a man is nonsense. Im just recognising the biological reality that he’s male

Science and biology are a very small part of what makes up a human being.

I don't think anyone would disagree with any of that. However, in some situations, what sex you are is fundamental to, particularly women's spaces. That can't be changed.

Sex specific spaces are crucial to women's safety and dignity. What would you say to women prisoners, rape victims, domestic abuse victims, sports people, the sick end disabled, orthodox religious - as you deny them what they need?

Perhaps we can all agree shame is what drives posts like this, traditional views will always get air time but positivity could go a long way when respecting individual rights.

Why would we agree on something so fundamentally ridiculous? 🤦‍♀️ Ultimately society needs to function in ways that are safest and best for all. Why are you completely disregarding the needs of women here? Is it because you've been taught to think they don't matter?

Why do you need to know sex in this conversation?

even JK referred to her trans friend as “She”.

sex matters when it’s a sex protected space. As long as people who refer to themselves in a gender that’s not matching their sex still respect a sex respected space, who cares?

Are we saying that women should stop feeling 'shame' of undressing Infront of males here?

I want to clarify this.

Are we saying that women who have been the victims of sexual abuse should stop feeling 'shame' and just get on with it?

I want to clarify this.

I'm sorry but this comment is a whisper away from 'reframe your trauma' and is absolutely totally and utterly unacceptable.

I don’t I’m just pointing out that someone identifying as she and a woman and then using that identity to suggest that women here are using ‘shame’ & ‘traditional views’ (like biological sex is real) to say single sex spaces matter is meaningless. Biscuits could be a woman or a man because people who use the pronoun she/her could be male or female which is all part of the bigger picture about how we got to where we are now

Can we stop it with this baloney that it's old fashioned to recognise that your biology doesn't give a shit how you identify. It's not a generational difference in culture.

Exactly. All these sunlit utopias being are being painted by very naive women.

Proper, responsible safeguarding starts from the acknowledgement of how humans actually are. Not how they'd like them to be.

There was a trans identified woman on another thread telling everyone that her 'vagina' was just as good as anyone else's and that she had periods. They spoke like a man in their entitled attitude. They insisted they had 'periods'. The delusional thinking and insisting they are women is very confusing to children. Telling children that men have babies now denies biology. They cannot, trans identified men that have their biological women's body can have babies.

Is the forcing of others into the delusional belief that sex can be changed, that just by saying so science is pushed aside like real women are and we must all agree with their thinking and adopt their terminology.

It is not shame that makes me think biological sex is a significant life influence and unchangeable. It is reality.
It is not shame that makes me think it’s important to make sure people are aware that sex is important and fixed. It’s awareness that all over the planet and in some places much more so than others women are aborted as foetuses, miss school, live in regular fear of assault, are marginalised, are treated as property, permanently injured in childbirth in life altering ways, and in many different ways through their life denied opportunities open to men. This harms children too - women and children are the world’s vulnerable, and shame is what privileged first world people saying ‘none of this sex stuff matters, safeguarding is meaningless and you obsolete traditionalists should get over yourselves‘ should feel. You bloody well should be ashamed.

This.

There is no shame in understanding sex matters.