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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

573 replies

changednameforthiss · 13/03/2024 22:03

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 16/03/2024 16:31

Anitazmum · 14/03/2024 10:12

Youll believe what you want to believe no matter what, but kids still end up trans without any external imput. Its clearly internal. Trans people have been around since before the internet. (i would know! 60s baby!)
The sex you're born into will likely dictate your social groups and the hobbies youre allowed to indulge in, so its understandable that kids who dont really gel with that might start thinking about alternatives. And wishing they could look different. Dress different. Be treated different. Have different friends.

Even before medical options were available, there were men who dressed like women and women who dressed like men!

And they did it for no reason other than in made them happy.

There are a few things about this post that misrepresent history as well as what is happening currently.

Firstly, I suspect that this poster has realised by now that the 'trans' umbrella is very large and covers many different interest groups. There 'was' trans people in the 60s. They were the very vast majority male people who seemed to fit the autogynephile profile. There was some transvestites who were not declaring they were 'women' but were very much aware they could not be 'women'. There were also transexuals. In the 60s, no one was being told that they had miraculously changed sex.

And some male doctors (from my reading) told some male people that they should access female single sex spaces.... without ever checking with female people before advising this. Because they had no care about female people's needs at all. They, as male people, gave away spaces needed for female people to those male people they considered should just have access. But that is a different issue.

This thought is regressive. Completely regressive:

"The sex you're born into will likely dictate your social groups and the hobbies youre allowed to indulge in, so its understandable that kids who dont really gel with that might start thinking about alternatives. And wishing they could look different. Dress different. Be treated different. Have different friends."

This should never have been something that was ever considered to be any validation of someone 'being in the wrong body'. How absolutely fucked up is that?

"Even before medical options were available, there were men who dressed like women and women who dressed like men!"

"And they did it for no reason other than in made them happy."

And female and male people transition often for very different motivations. And this will have always have been the case. 'making them happy' is an oversimplification and it is frankly irrelevant. No female person should be harmed in any way just because a male person wants 'to be happy'. So, either this poster is uninformed or is trying to make some irrelevant point. Maybe they are saying that female people should just suck up any harm caused by this group of male people .... to keep those male people happy.. And that would also be fucked up.

However, this is concerning and also shows a lack of depth of understanding the current cohort of children seeking to transition.

"kids still end up trans without any external imput. Its clearly internal."

There is a growing bank of evidence to show that actually there is plenty of external input that is harming children. It even causes diagnosis and therapy to be incredibly difficult. We have heard clinician testimony about those 'external' pressures and how parents and other people have suggested and in some cases, transitioned very young children. Susie Green is a very well known example. There are many that can be found on tik Tok or in various reports where parents have transitioned their very young children.

And not only that, but there are also clinicians out there who have been raising the alarms that children are arriving at the clinics after being very obviously coached by either parents, peers or other overly-invested adults and 'support groups.'

Here is one paper which has tried to raise the alarm.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

Published April 22, 2021
Kasia Kozlowska, Georgia McClure et al

Australian children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: Clinical presentations and challenges experienced by a multidisciplinary team and gender service

Part of the conclusion

Our findings indicate that engagement with families, a trauma-informed model of mental health care, and ongoing discourse pertaining to the effects of unresolved trauma and loss need to be part of all gender dysphoria clinics and the services with which they collaborate. Because of their impact on subjective well-being and the development of the self, specific loss and trauma events present crucial opportunities for both long-term psychotherapy and more immediate, targeted treatments. The move to a more comprehensive, holistic model of care—one that takes into account the individual’s developmental history and the experiences that make up that history—has also been echoed in the work of other clinician-researchers (D’Angelo, 2020a; Entwistle, 2019; Giovanardi et al., 2018; Kozlowska et al., 2021; Williamson, 2019).

Our study found that the children and families who came to the clinic had clear, preformed expectations: most often, children and families wanted a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be provided or confirmed, together with referral to endocrinology services to pursue medical treatment of gender dysphoria. Parents (vs. children) also largely came with the same expectations, though they were more likely to be interested in incorporating holistic (biopsychosocial) elements, including treatment of mental health comorbidities, family support/therapy, and long-term psychotherapy for the child. It was our impression that these expectations had been shaped by the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model. It will be interesting to track the expectations of children and families in the years to come as sociopolitical discourses become more varied and diverse and as the voices are heard of both those who have done well and those who not done well via the medical pathway.

Our study also found that despite the high rates of family conflict, relationship breakdowns, parental mental illness, and maltreatment (see Table 3)—and our own clinical perspective that both individual and family work were indicated for the majority of families—few families rated themselves as being in a clinically severe range on self-report (SCORE-15). Coupled with the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model that prioritizes the medical treatment pathway—it is not surprising that the large majority of children and families were not motivated to engage in or to remain engaged in ongoing therapy. These data bring three important phenomena into focus. First, when children and families were given the space and structure to tell the child’s developmental story—nested in the story of the family—they were able to identify and provide a detailed narrative of the key issues that had contributed to the child’s presentation and distress. Without this space and structure, the issues remain undeclared and unaddressed. Second, some families—but also some clinicians—function within a non-holistic (non-biopsychosocial) framework where the child’s developmental experiences are disconnected from their clinical presentation. This non-holistic framework is likely to promote a healthcare delivery model that dehumanizes the child (by not examining the child’s and family’s lived experience) and that promotes medical solutions (correcting the identity/body mismatch) for a problem that is much more complex. Third, as noted earlier, our experience suggests that, insofar as the gender affirmative model is taken as equivalent to medical intervention, clinicians (including ourselves) who work in gender services are coming under increasing pressure to put aside their own holistic (biopsychosocial) model of care, and to compromise their own ethical standards, by engaging in a tick-the-box treatment process. Such an approach does not adequately address a broad range of psychological, family, and social issues and puts patients at risk of adverse future outcomes and clinicians at risk of future legal action.

Please stop spreading misrepresentation and what amounts to misinformation.

Circumferences · 16/03/2024 19:26

Gender non conforming people have always existed. How could they not? Seeing as gender is a social construct, it's not possible for 100% of people to confirm to societies expectations.

To say "trans people" have always existed is a myth.
"Transgenderism" is a very modern, very recent concept. Demanding particular pronouns is also very recent. Only started up in the last 5 or so years.

BadSkiingMum · 17/03/2024 10:16

I believe that humans are highly susceptible to influence from our peers and from the wider environment; this could also be described as social contagion. We both admire and fear others (often with very good reason) so don’t want to set ourselves outside the norm. Episodes of mass human behaviour have happened time and time again throughout history, even before literacy was sufficiently established to have an influence on all of the people concerned.

Dancing mania of the middle ages
Millenarian cults after the English Civil War
Witch hunting and witch trials
Tulip mania

However, the evidence of my own experience is that I was primary-teaching in London for the entirety of the noughties. The children I had contact with were born from about 1989 onwards. I taught in multiple different schools in different parts of London (including a school not far from the Tavistock) and held positions of responsibility, meaning that I had awareness of the issues that children in the school were experiencing beyond the children in my own class.

Not once, not one single time, did a gender-identity issue ever come up, despite teaching many children who had acknowledged MH challenges - one was receiving counselling at the Tavistock, so it must have been before the Tavi was captured! Nor did I ever hear about gender identity issues from other teachers at professional development events (where it is not uncommon to talk about issues that are coming up in practice) or ever have it suggested in any form of CPD that it might be an issue to consider.

Yet today it is put forward that young people born in that era ‘always knew’ they were trans; that primary age children can experience gender dysphoria and be trans; that pre-schoolers can be trans; and even that babies can be ‘born in the wrong body’.

I believe that a tiny, tiny percentage of the population experiences gender dysphoria and should be supported as adults to undergo transition, with a full medical and legal process in place.

For the vast majority of others I believe that they have fallen under a modern-day cult of influence and I sincerely hope that it passes before too much damage is done.

BadSkiingMum · 17/03/2024 10:25

Unfortunately I do suspect there is also a third group who have jumped on this bandwagon in order to appear more ‘relevant’ in certain sectors, such as theatre, charities or the arts. But for them no drastic medical measures are needed; a quick fashion re-style and a change to ‘they/them’ pronouns does the job.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 17/03/2024 12:24

Why do people get so offended by the idea that being transgender ie having some sort of belief that there is a mismatch between your sexed body and your brain is a mental illness? It certainly isn’t a normal state of being to feel that way. What’s wrong with it being a mental illness? I thought we were supposed to be reducing stigma around mental illness. I just don’t get why it’s offensive.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 17/03/2024 12:26

I believe that a tiny, tiny percentage of the population experiences gender dysphoria and should be supported as adults to undergo transition, with a full medical and legal process in place

or alternatively receive help so that they can come to terms with the reality of their sexed body? Why is it this that’s viewed by TRAs as “conversion therapy” instead of the actual “conversion” ie medical and surgical transitioning of the body

Waitingfordoggo · 17/03/2024 12:26

I don’t get that either @TooOldForThisNonsense. Everyone who’s anyone talks about mental health these days. As someone who has MH problems, I welcome this renewed openness and reducing of the stigma around mental illness.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/03/2024 12:43

TooOldForThisNonsense · 17/03/2024 12:24

Why do people get so offended by the idea that being transgender ie having some sort of belief that there is a mismatch between your sexed body and your brain is a mental illness? It certainly isn’t a normal state of being to feel that way. What’s wrong with it being a mental illness? I thought we were supposed to be reducing stigma around mental illness. I just don’t get why it’s offensive.

Because if you accept it's a mental illness or anything to do with a flawed understanding of your body, it's obvious the resolution is to reconcile your self image with your actual body sex.

TRAs don't want that. They want the mental self image to be accepted as the "real" person, and the body sex to be the thing that's "wrong".

Helleofabore · 17/03/2024 12:44

TooOldForThisNonsense

I think you will find it is only partially because people want to ‘destigmatise’ it. I have watched TikToks where teenagers are clear they consider it a lifestyle choice.

The other issue is that there is also a sub group who are clear they don’t suffer from gender dysphoria but have other motivations. Sometimes it is sexual. For instance, there is one sub group called transmaxxers.

The result however, is that now people are demanding medical treatment for an identity. It is a blunt way to look at it, but I think it needs to have the emotional obfuscation removed to considered. What other group would get ‘identity’ treatment meaning extreme body modifications on the NHS ?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/03/2024 12:44

I think there may be a valid distinction between 'mental illness' and having some sort of intrinsically different wiring to your brain/body. Analagous to autism perhaps? However, for many youngsters presenting with 'gender distress' it appears to be a lot more akin to anorexia which afaik is a 'mental illness'. There may well be a mix (and obviously a person with an intrinsic difference may or may not also suffer from mental illness).

TooOldForThisNonsense · 17/03/2024 12:55

Makes sense - thanks. Ultimately I don’t particularly care about causing offence to trans people or their “allies” anyway.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 17/03/2024 13:31

Dysphoria is a mental health issue.

AGP is a sexual paraphilia.

If 'trans' isn't a mental illness, or a physical illness they why does it require drugs and/or surgery?

If it isn't a mental illness or a paraphilia, then it must a lifestyle choice. In which case the cosmetic surgery should not be an nhs matter.

It's the blatant contradiction that kids NEED drugs and surgeries and be diagnosed with something asap, while the grown men can be 'women' without having to do a fucking thing other than say they are one.

The main issue is now, instead of a few dysphoric transexuals that were mostly gay men, we have children with multiple co morbid mental health problems being lumped into the same category at fetishistic transvestites and are told they are the same.

What other branch of medicine would this be accepted, without question.

They KNOW the damage is causes women when they go though menopause early yet they are putting very young women through it before their bodies have even reached maturity and in the cases where puberty blockers were given first, the permanent damage will be horric.
There is no way they can make informed consent when they will be unable to comprehend the damage it will do because they think 30 is forever away and feel ok now.

It is NOT equilvalant to a middle age man with his fully formed adult body taking estrogen.

Boombatty · 17/03/2024 13:52

If it's not a mental illness then why is it medicalised? How come the big pharma businesses are going to make billions out of confused children? These people then become lifelong patients, requiring ongoing medicalisation, surgery and then corrective surgery when it inevitably goes wrong.

Helleofabore · 17/03/2024 14:25

Shhhhh! People get very upset when you point out the contradictions and the inconsistencies. As mentioned.

We are told repeatedly that puberty blockers are ‘safe’. We have people on MN who declare they have even studied the topic at post grad level that assure people it is ‘safe’? But at the exact same time it is declared unsafe to not give medical treatment for what is no longer considered a medical issue because it is not classified as a mental illness, supposedly.

Any discussion pointing out the current research findings and the mounting evidence to the contrary, that puberty blockers are not ‘safe’ and posters are usually accused vehemently that they are transphobic. The entire premise is based on only philosophical belief that some posters will try to pound into either being ‘biological’ with falsehoods or misrepresented studies or that should be endorsed using another groups history of oppression. Or we have what happened earlier with a hugely overly emotional refusal that amounted to a tantrum with the post meant to shame people into silence. While some other posters joined in and offerred that poster sympathy for their appalling behaviour.

None of it stands up to scrutiny.

AnonyLonnymouse · 17/03/2024 15:30

TooOldForThisNonsense · 17/03/2024 12:26

I believe that a tiny, tiny percentage of the population experiences gender dysphoria and should be supported as adults to undergo transition, with a full medical and legal process in place

or alternatively receive help so that they can come to terms with the reality of their sexed body? Why is it this that’s viewed by TRAs as “conversion therapy” instead of the actual “conversion” ie medical and surgical transitioning of the body

Well quite, because any process would be sufficiently thorough and include enough checks, balances and review points so that only a tiny proportion of those first presenting themselves as dysphoric would eventually proceed to a medical solution.

KattyBoomBoom95 · 17/03/2024 21:52

ErrolTheDragon · 15/03/2024 23:30

I cba. 🤣 It would be like arguing with an MRA. I know your game.

Confused RedToothBrush is one of the most serious posters on this topic I can think of. This isn't a game for her, as I'd have thought was blindingly obvious.

It was a generic comparison. I was talking about people that are so much on one side that they can't have a philosophical discussion on the subject because to them it's always a war in which no ground can be surrendered.

TRAs and GC advocates are locked in a headlong struggle and it's tiresome discussing the topic with either because they want to challenge/shoehorn/present endless lists of points at every opportunity.

I'm definitely GC leaning in my views but I'm not the slightest bit concerned about it in day to day life.

KattyBoomBoom95 · 17/03/2024 21:57

I find the topic interesting but cba to engage with the types of posters that ask perpetual questions and then hound you for answers because they want to 'prove they're right'.

Everybody knows the type.

"I'm still waiting for a response to my question six pages ago" type of posters. Yeah they can fuck right off. 😂

KattyBoomBoom95 · 17/03/2024 22:11

TooOldForThisNonsense · 17/03/2024 12:24

Why do people get so offended by the idea that being transgender ie having some sort of belief that there is a mismatch between your sexed body and your brain is a mental illness? It certainly isn’t a normal state of being to feel that way. What’s wrong with it being a mental illness? I thought we were supposed to be reducing stigma around mental illness. I just don’t get why it’s offensive.

This is the discussion I was attempting to have - not so much the 'why do they get offended' part but the views around it being a mental illness.

If anybody was to suggest that homosexuality was a mental illness due to there being a mismatch between your sexed body and brain there'd be a shitstorm but in evolutionary terms (pretty much the basis of human/animal sexuality) it could be argued as a sort of malfunction in that it's entirely counterproductive to reproduction which is what every species is hardwired to do.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/03/2024 01:10

@KattyBoomBoom95

I think that line of thinking is quite a common one, but it doesn't really stand up to close examination.

If being gay was some sort of mental miswire (and to be clear I don't personally believe this and could give good reasons why not, but I'm going along with your premise) a gay person would still be gay. They wouldn't "really" fancy the opposite sex but their brain tells them otherwise. There might be a mismatch between who evolution "intended" them to fancy (again, this is following your premise not my own beliefs) and who they do fancy, but there's no mismatch between their self perception and reality.

A trans person however is not physically the opposite sex. Regardless of what may or may not be happening biologically to lead to their transgender self image, that self perception does not match reality.

Now that's not to say that that self perception isn't something real, but whatever it is, it's something different to body sex. So trying to accept trans people by accommodating their self image as the opposite sex is very different to accepting gay people because the latter just means accepting the reality that, regardless of why they fancy the same sex, they do fancy the sane sex and if it doesn't cause any particular problems then why not?

But the former means redefining reality to alllow for a "sex" that's based on inner feelings not the fact of the body, and that affects not just the trans person but absolutely everyone else, not least because regardless of how we mess around with words, we do have a physical sex, it does affect our physical capabilities and other humans do react to us in culturally sexed ways regardless of how we see ourselves.

Helleofabore · 18/03/2024 05:54

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/03/2024 01:10

@KattyBoomBoom95

I think that line of thinking is quite a common one, but it doesn't really stand up to close examination.

If being gay was some sort of mental miswire (and to be clear I don't personally believe this and could give good reasons why not, but I'm going along with your premise) a gay person would still be gay. They wouldn't "really" fancy the opposite sex but their brain tells them otherwise. There might be a mismatch between who evolution "intended" them to fancy (again, this is following your premise not my own beliefs) and who they do fancy, but there's no mismatch between their self perception and reality.

A trans person however is not physically the opposite sex. Regardless of what may or may not be happening biologically to lead to their transgender self image, that self perception does not match reality.

Now that's not to say that that self perception isn't something real, but whatever it is, it's something different to body sex. So trying to accept trans people by accommodating their self image as the opposite sex is very different to accepting gay people because the latter just means accepting the reality that, regardless of why they fancy the same sex, they do fancy the sane sex and if it doesn't cause any particular problems then why not?

But the former means redefining reality to alllow for a "sex" that's based on inner feelings not the fact of the body, and that affects not just the trans person but absolutely everyone else, not least because regardless of how we mess around with words, we do have a physical sex, it does affect our physical capabilities and other humans do react to us in culturally sexed ways regardless of how we see ourselves.

All true Flirts. But I don’t think this poster is actually reading. This has been explained more than once. They seem to have doubled down that their line of thought is not flawed and is a good comparator, when it is not a good comparator at all.

But hey, at least those reading along get to see it patiently explained in different ways and can scrutinise for themselves the fit of what they propose. The thought that there is no material reaction to be measured with sexual attraction is mystifying.

And the constant dismissal of that physical reaction makes it seem like there is a lack of understanding about sexual attraction with some posters. Or that that physical reaction is just inconvenient, either to posters or to people who wish to label their sexual orientation one way while their reaction/lack of reaction would suggest that that label is false. Whether intentionally false or not.

The other point often forgotten is that so many people attempting this forced comparison always seem to forget all the other genders. Do they really think someone declaring they are cat gender a demanding to be treated as a cat is in anyway comparative to someone who has a physical arousal reaction to one type of sexed body or both types? The posters who do this do seem to forget the over one hundred other genders and this seems deliberate. Because acknowledging that those genders are considered just as legitimate with their own pronouns etc shows the weakness of the argument.

Either way, the reality is that sexual attraction has a physical response (material). People declaring a gender identity is philosophical only and cannot be anything more.

No person who has a gender identity is able to define it other than in a circular ‘identifies as being’ type statement. Because even what they ‘feel like’ is only ever an approximation they have created in their head, usually using sex based stereotypes which are just that, stereotypes. Therefore, they are not widely applicable to an entire group in reality and are often offensive to the group being stereotyped. (As Mulvaney is currently finding out, yet again).

Helleofabore · 18/03/2024 06:07

But the former means redefining reality to alllow for a "sex" that's based on inner feelings not the fact of the body, and that affects not just the trans person but absolutely everyone else, not least because regardless of how we mess around with words, we do have a physical sex, it does affect our physical capabilities and other humans do react to us in culturally sexed ways regardless of how we see ourselves.

Yes. This.

Because by accommodating one persons belief, that they have a gender identity, they are therefore now using language that is being forced to describe the opposite of the original meaning. It forceably strips the original meaning . Too many posters then try the old ‘language changes’ dismissal. But language does not change in this way in reality. Woman never meant ‘men who believed they were women’. People may have wrongly used it out of courtesy but that is about all.

Now we have pseudo science creeping into our scientific thought. We have people declaring that post modern theory or concepts falsify proven and established science. That linguist twisting somehow describes an abiding, provable concept that is not objective at all. We have pseudo science declaring there are more than two sexes when people with medical conditions are not different sexes or on a continuum. They are still reliably categorised. But it is again, all based on falsehood, deliberately or not.

Helleofabore · 18/03/2024 06:24

Of course, there is also the new need to erase and diminish the terms such as homosexual and bisexual.

While GLAAD erases the term homosexual, it introduces the term "Same Gender Loving" and says that "identities" like gay and lesbian are considered Eurocentric or white. GLAAD also introduces the terms "androsexual" and "gynesexual".

https://x.com/drawingeggen/status/1769358020322918625?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

I am quietly supportive of the creation of new terms that leave the meanings of established terms in their original meanings. However, attempting to force media outlets to avoid using terms that groups within the population still use to define themselves because one group demands authority over language is totalitarian. Yet here they are doing it.

This is Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, redefining homosexuality. Effectively erasing the word.

https://x.com/drawingeggen/status/1769358020322918625?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/03/2024 10:35

@Helleofabore

I actually think this line of reasoning ("society once thought bring gay was an abberation and now it's accepted as just something that some people are born to be, so we should apply the same thinking to transgender identities") underlies the surprising readiness of what for want of a better word I'll call the establishment to accept the TRA narrative that some people with male bodies are "really" born to be women and vice versa.

Ironically, it actually betrays that the people who follow that line of thinking don't truly accept homosexuality as as valid as heterosexuality, because it's really them saying "I don't want to be on the wrong side of history again, I accept one thing that seems unnatural so I guess this is the same".

In other words, the only reason to treat homosexuality and transgenderism as "the same" is because the observer sees something that links them. In reality there's nothing especially significant that makes them "the same" and many things that make them different and contradictory. We need to challenge the lazy thinking "gay is OK so trans is ok" and instead treat transgenderism as a thing in its own right, look at the fundamentals of what is being claimed and the social changes demanded off the back of those claims and ask "Does this make sense? Is it reasonable? If we acceed to these demands what else changes because of it and does that make sense, is that reasonable?"

moderate · 18/03/2024 11:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/03/2024 10:35

@Helleofabore

I actually think this line of reasoning ("society once thought bring gay was an abberation and now it's accepted as just something that some people are born to be, so we should apply the same thinking to transgender identities") underlies the surprising readiness of what for want of a better word I'll call the establishment to accept the TRA narrative that some people with male bodies are "really" born to be women and vice versa.

Ironically, it actually betrays that the people who follow that line of thinking don't truly accept homosexuality as as valid as heterosexuality, because it's really them saying "I don't want to be on the wrong side of history again, I accept one thing that seems unnatural so I guess this is the same".

In other words, the only reason to treat homosexuality and transgenderism as "the same" is because the observer sees something that links them. In reality there's nothing especially significant that makes them "the same" and many things that make them different and contradictory. We need to challenge the lazy thinking "gay is OK so trans is ok" and instead treat transgenderism as a thing in its own right, look at the fundamentals of what is being claimed and the social changes demanded off the back of those claims and ask "Does this make sense? Is it reasonable? If we acceed to these demands what else changes because of it and does that make sense, is that reasonable?"

Very good point. It's long been apparent to me how strongly homophobic trans rights activism is, but I've never really noticed quite how casually homophobic this false equivalence is.

Helleofabore · 18/03/2024 11:08

FlirtsWithRhinos · 18/03/2024 10:35

@Helleofabore

I actually think this line of reasoning ("society once thought bring gay was an abberation and now it's accepted as just something that some people are born to be, so we should apply the same thinking to transgender identities") underlies the surprising readiness of what for want of a better word I'll call the establishment to accept the TRA narrative that some people with male bodies are "really" born to be women and vice versa.

Ironically, it actually betrays that the people who follow that line of thinking don't truly accept homosexuality as as valid as heterosexuality, because it's really them saying "I don't want to be on the wrong side of history again, I accept one thing that seems unnatural so I guess this is the same".

In other words, the only reason to treat homosexuality and transgenderism as "the same" is because the observer sees something that links them. In reality there's nothing especially significant that makes them "the same" and many things that make them different and contradictory. We need to challenge the lazy thinking "gay is OK so trans is ok" and instead treat transgenderism as a thing in its own right, look at the fundamentals of what is being claimed and the social changes demanded off the back of those claims and ask "Does this make sense? Is it reasonable? If we acceed to these demands what else changes because of it and does that make sense, is that reasonable?"

Absolutely. And even when it is pointed out, some people lack the self awareness to stop and think further and more deeply about why people are saying ‘why, why, why?’

But to them, they have delivered a real zinger, they believe no one has ever seen before. But the reality is they want to use false equivalences to prop up their reasoning.

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