to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

cos thats exactly the same... 😤

Nothing is more likely to leave you without grandchildren than puberty blockers. The vast majority of girls who become convinced that their pubertal bodily discomfort means they are actually boys, end up desisting if no medical interventions are commenced; but the vast majority of those who disrupt their normal development go on to a lifetime of hormones and surgery and likely infertility.

Why would you suppose that a homosexual person would not have children ?

I really think more people should pursue martial arts. Modern Hollywood would have you believe that an athletic woman can easily hold her own in a fist fight with an athletic man. People need a bit of an experience to drive home the understanding that “everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth”.

So I agree with Op and many of the posts.

What I personally am trying to get my head around is the bit about everybody should be free to wear what they want, call themselves what they want, etc; which in principal is easy to agree with. My issue is what if we end up looking all very similar (thinking of people like Jordan Grey who was dressed and talked like a women and I had no idea he was actually a man, for example) - how we will then enforce laws protecting the more vulnerable sex, if we cannot distinguish them... We'll still be relying on self identification, and minority of the males will still be gravitating towards female spaces for various reasons.

Just pondering really. Not trying to divert the thread too much.
I realise complete gender neutrality/ getting rid of gender stereotypical clothing and manners is not something that is going to happen anytime soon...

Well, you can adopt/go the surrogate route of course, but most gay people don't want to sleep with the opposite sex. That was my line of thinking.

No human has the right to have a baby.

No parent has the right to be a grandparent.

The consequences of a child identifying as trans is nothing like a child coming out as being gay.

It is really offensive that we have a poster suggesting otherwise.

Then you seem to not know a great deal about modern families and your analogies continue to not really work.

They seem to be rather ill informed to be fair. But they do post with confidence.

You’re right that some women would feel that way. I’m not one of them, and nor- I suspect- are many of the GC women who post on this board.

Besides which, being gay doesn’t mean someone can’t be a parent, nor does being straight mean someone is going to be a parent.

My DD is straight and adamant she doesn’t want to have children (she might of course change her mind). Of course I might like a grandbaby or two but her life is not mine and she has the choice. I didn’t bring her into the world assuming she would one day make me a Grandma.

(And actually, choosing not to have children isn’t a bad decision given the state of the world. Like me, my DD has MH issues and so not having children could be a great choice for her).

I think we need to work out what is the fairest system first and foremost, which is a heated debate on its own, without worrying too much about enforceability.

The issue of how rules will be policed or enforced is often raised to shut down people talking about what the best policy or rule should be.

Most rules in society aren't policed with 100% success. If we abandoned laws because we couldn't always stop them being broken we'd have to legalise murder.

Those things don't really apply. The idea of cultural appropriation is specifically copying part of the culture of an 'oppressed' group for personal gain/validation, such as wearing braids traditionally worn by black people or sombreros traditionally worn by south Americans and lots of other examples.
By that logic, since women specifically (not feminists) have always been a marginalised group, whose emulating women are guilty of gender appropriation

Yes, the idea of women appropriating feminism is ludicrous. Feminism is a movement for women and about women.

I don’t think the suffragettes would prefer we just drop the baton because it was their idea and we shouldn’t steal it. 😂

I think we need to work out what is the fairest system first and foremost

Why is this seemingly so difficult though?
We already had the fairest system.
Female people need, and were given, single sex spaces for reasons that haven't changed just because some men want to pretend to be women.

If that's 'not fair' to these men then tough shit.
Their fantasy should not be placed above female reality in any circumstance.

Some things need to be segregated by sex. It's extremely simple.
An individual's personality, self expression or lifestyle choice is irrelevant.

Brilliantly put. 👏

And good for them, that is their right and i hope their lives are happy, contented and free of harm. But it does not change the fact that those born with a penis and a prostate are male, no matter how they choose to live their life. That is a fact not a fantasy, not a lie just the honest truth. Once we all get that straight in our minds the sooner can all live in peace and harmony. It really is that simple. If we are all honest, it can happen.

@Whatsnewpussyhat I completely agree with your assessment of what the fairest approach is. I just know some people getting bogged down, either honestly or as an attempt to derail, with questions about enforcement.

We could all wear the same clothes, have the same haircut etc etc and still people would be able to correctly sex the vast majority of people. It isn't clothes, hairstyles or names which differentiate us.

The consequences of a child identifying as trans is nothing like a child coming out as being gay.

It is really offensive that we have a poster suggesting otherwise.

I don't think people are really getting my point.

To elaborate, there often seems to be the insinuation that trans people are in some way mentally ill - how many times have we heard the argument "well, we don't affirm the beliefs of anorexic people that think they're fat."

However, both gay and trans are orientations driven by feelings rather than scientific proof. It took decades before gay people were accepted and they were at times seen as indecent and sent for conversion therapy.

Because transwomen often still have male genitalia and retain their male bone structure etc it makes it inappropriate for them to compete in women's sports/use women's changing rooms etc, but this doesn't mean that the existence of trans people is any less valid than gay people.

They are getting your point.

They just think it's shit, offensive or homophobic or a combination of them.

You have not once bothered to address anything I said about how ignorant, naive and misplaced your comparison was.

Instead you doubled down.

It's an horrendous comparison that is used to emotionally blackmail and coerce people particularly families.

Instead of winging that no one is listening to you, how about you engage with some of the responses that have been made and explain EXACTLY to me how it doesn't create potentially toxic dynamics in family units because of people shouting 'transphobia' when we are talking about people swept up in cult like communities and taking life changing drugs which not only may render them childless but also give them life long complications and indeed may shorten their lives

Because the false equivalence and the idea that families don't care is bullshit.

OK, perhaps you can explain exactly why it's 'shit, offensive, homophobic' and a 'false equivalence' because to me it just sounds a bit like when TRAs accuse anybody questioning them of being 'transphobic'.

In simple terms why is being homosexual completely beyond questioning but being trans is seen as a mental illness? I'm genuinely interested in an answer rather than more diversionary tactics. I seem to have struck a nerve but I'm genuinely interested in this as somebody who kind of agrees with GC feminists but also finds them a bit obsessed at times.

I did.

You ignored it.

HTH.

Absolutely.

Given that there are a number of gay rights organisations concerned about the nature of how trans in certain cases looks to be about 'transing away the gay' I think there's more than a few reasons to be concerned about the homophobia involved.

We know that a significant number of trans identifying children are same sex attracted for starters.

We shouldnt be over looking this element either.

The way I see it, and it's only my opinion is this.

My son is gay. I presume he could, if needed, prove he is attracted to male bodies and not female ones because of how his body reacts to other bodies. There's probably something that can't be measured scientifically, but I'm not a scientist.
My son being gay has no effect on my life whatsoever, other than I'll never have a daughter in law and any children he wants will take more planning than most hetero couples. However, daughters-in-law and grandchildren are not a human right, and there's no guarantee I would have them if he were straight.
Basically him being gay has no actual effect on my life.

If my son had come out as trans then I'd either have to 'misgender' him and refer to "when he was a little boy," or lie and pretend I'd always had a daughter. I'd either have to be unsupportive and tell him I don't agree with him using women's spaces, or tell him to use them anyway and fuck anyone who isn't comfortable with that.
And presumably it could be proven that he is male (and therefore a man, as that's the English word for adult human male) by doing a DNA test. Of course that doesn't mean that they don't think they are trans, but there isn't even a concrete definition of that these days so it doesnt really mean anything.